Question:

On 2005-04-08, CATherine penned: The wind had hit the poles with hurricane force and snapped them like matchsticks. At 10:30 in the morning. Jeff had called the power company. They said they had so many poles down that they had borrowed crews from other power companies. And in many places the wires had snapped connections and were on the ground shorting out. Wow.  I didn’t even notice any unusual weather here in Boulder and Longmont. DH is disbelieving that the winds could have been that strong; do you know of an article somewhere I can show him?

Well, The Colorado Springs has the Gazette on the Internet. I don’t know if the Limon Leader is online or not. But Mountain View Electric Assn. has a web site. They will be putting out a newsletter soon about all the line work they did. Maybe they will have an article online as well. I don’t know the URLs. Maybe you can Google? I don’t know how to do that, either. BTW, the Hurricane word is my own description, cause i read somewhere that any wind over 60 is hurricane force. And I am positive the wind was mmore than that out here. — CATherine

Response:

A friend of mine lost her brand new roof. Now her insurance won’t pay for another one. CATherine Oh my goodness! I had no idea. I’m so glad it wasn’t worse for you. I’m sorry about your friend’s roof. I don’t understand insurance at all. I mean, what do you pay for???

Well, she had had a new roof put on from being damaged by a storm last year. But she didn’t want the cheap one from the insurance company. She ordered a better roof and paid the difference herself. But this wind took the good, so it was a waste. And the insurance won’t replace the good one and it hads been less than a year, so that is that as far as they are concermned. My friend is about fed up with Colorado winds and the insurance company. She wants to move back to Philly!! — CATherine

Response:

WOW! All day Tues. I kept peering out my son’s house windows (I was over there babysitting all day) looking for the promised snow/rain weather tv had scared me with for days before….and all that happened *all day* was very strong winds from western/northern directions. Huge hardwood trees bent (not just branches, *the trees*) and I thought often of you all, CAT, out there on the prairie, where the storm must have had its full force! Explanation to rpca friends: I live in downtown Denver, which I usually refer to as "MileHigh"….CAT and family live about 80 miles south and east of here, on the Great Plains of CO, where trees are scarce and farms are numerous….. I was so grateful and happy that the storm apparently missed MileHigh completely except for the wind – no snow where I live, just a touch of rain. But the tv said it all flew by to north of here and swept through CAT’s area with its full power. Yes, CAT, daffodils and also hyacinths are blooming big here in son’s yard, also violets and those pink flowers that start with a "c" native to this area, not to mention the ‘orange lily things. And still the natives locally are telling me, the dumb former south Floridian, that this is "the usual" weather in our newer home…..Hopitus will be happy as h*** when all these weather threats and storms quit for the summer. I see what the natives meant when they said, "Ha. That lasts about 3 days!" when I told them upon my arrival in June that I had visited every season except spring…….

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Tuesday in Colorado, a powerful storm blew through. Rain, snow and extremely strong winds. They said gusts of 60mph near the mountains and the cities. But out on the prairie, where there is not much to slow the wind down, I do believe the wind was a lot stronger. It was hard to drive with the wind hitting the side of the car. By the time I got to work, I was tired from my deathgrip on the steering wheel. I opened the door to get out and the wind slammed the door on my foot! It was like that all day. By the time I was done seeing clients, I was tireder from fighting the wind than I was from the work. As i drove home across the prairie, I noticed damages from the wind. Signs, storage sheds and even a portapotty at a construction site were rolling in the wind. But I didn’t have too much attention for seeing things like that as I was trying to keep the car on the road. Once i got home, I just relaxed for a moment before opening the door. I was so glad the driver’s door was on the lee side of the wind. Then Jeff came out to escort me to the house. He often does, knowing I am tired. He had bad news for me. No electricity. Well, that happens some times in the country. But I said it should come back on after awhile. He said, No. Then he turned me around and said look up the hill behind the house. So what do I see? Nothing. What should I see? Poles with the electric wires. The wind had hit the poles with hurricane force and snapped them like matchsticks. At 10:30 in the morning. Jeff had called the power company. They said they had so many poles down that they had borrowed crews from other power companies. And in many places the wires had snapped connections and were on the ground shorting out. We were luckier than many people out here. We live in a very old place with a real well; not just a pipe in the ground. My son set up a block and tackle and lowered a bucket in the well so we could have water. We have a wood stove so we could stay warm and cook. And we lit a lot of candles. It was kind of like camping. But I sure missed my computer. I am glad we have the power back on. We were out for about 30 hours. They got our six poles replaced late last night. But there are still a lot of broken poles to replace. I see trailers with loads of creosoted poles sitting at sites of downed poles, waiting their turn. A friend of mine lost her brand new roof. Now her insurance won’t pay for another one. Last week I was snowed in for two days with a heavy wet snow. The next few days was 70 degrees. Then this storm hit us. Now it is 70 again. This sure is crazy weather for April. I want ot see some flowers. The redbuds and apple tree should be blooming. At least I am seeing daffodils in the city where the weather is a bit warmer than the country. — CATherine

Response:

I am one who was brought up in s. FL, the land of killer ‘canes, wind and rain storms. The rain storms here are so lame – no thunder to speak of, and I ain’t seen lightning yet, though never say never. What I really meant with that statement was freedom from the %*IA^*(^A)($% snow, ice, and other winter crap that wafts down on us here regularly. LOL – one person’s "winter wonderland" is another’s PITA if you didn’t grow up with it and every occurrence is a new challenge in dealing w/it. My ignorance of these matters is a source of never-ending amusement to my neighbors, and sometimes to my relatives here. Often I think, but never say, "well, I’d like to plunk *you* down in the middle of a Class 5 ‘cane – common when I was a child – and see how funny that would be"….hee hee. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – On 2005-04-08, Hopitus penned: ….Hopitus will be happy as h*** when all these weather threats and storms quit for the summer. Um, you’re joking, right? Last summer, anyway, there were afternoon storms almost every day. Some were so intense that they flooded our parking lot.  I had to walk through 3 and 4 inch deep lakes to get to my car. Morning: bright and sunny.  Noon: bright and sunny.  3-4pm: sky is falling; cancel all outdoor plans for the evening.  5pm: bright and sunny, not a cloud in the sky. Welcome to Colorado! — monique, who spoils Oscar unmercifully pictures: http://www.bounceswoosh.org/rpca

Response:

Uh, this is a little irreverent, Victor, but did the kids then have a big feast on the fallen birds? Or do they insist on

I’m sure a bunch of cats did, but mine did not partake of the banquet…. :) live prey? Personally, it sounds like the answer to a cat’s prayer to Bast……manna from heaven.

No kidding. Bad news for the birdies though… — Victor M. Martinez Owned and operated by the Fantastic Seven (TM)

Response:

Tuesday in Colorado, a powerful storm blew through. Rain, snow and extremely strong winds. They said gusts of 60mph near the mountains and the cities. But out on the prairie, where there is not much to slow the wind down, I do believe the wind was a lot stronger.

(snippage) Yikes!  Now that’s some powerful wind!  I’m glad you’re safe and got your power back.  You were very lucky to be without it only 30 hours considering the damage. Several years back, I think it was in June, the Memphis area was similarly hit.  I’d been at work about 30 minutes.  It was about 7:15 AM when I looked up from my desk and it was literally black as midnight outside.  I exclaimed to no one in particular "Oh crap!"  A co-worker sitting one aisle over whose desk faced away from the window said, "What’s wrong, Jill?"  Look out the window!  I heard her say, "Oh crap!"  The storm hit almost simultaneously and the wind was so strong (they estimated 60-70 MPH as well) the trees on those grass "islands" in the parking lot were literally horizontal with the ground.  Then, of course, the electricity went out.  My employer had a generator (they took up 3 of the 5 floors in the building).  It powered everything EXCEPT air conditioning (aside from the server room).  As the morning progressed it got warmer and warmer in the office.  We had to pour water from coffee pots to flush the toilets… which (it turned out) didn’t work for very long.  Turned out some of the water pumping stations had been knocked offline as well and the stench became unbearable. My apartment is surrounded by trees and I was more concerned about finding out if it was still there.  The phones were out at the apartment office. They finally told us all to go home close to noon.  My apartment was safe, but my power was off for 5 days.  My phone also didn’t work, nor did any of the pay phones in the vicinity.  I didn’t have a cell phone at the time.  So I had to drive to work every day to find out if they were "open".  They weren’t.  But the good thing about that was the generators still powered the ice machines in the breakrooms.  I loaded up bags of ice to take back for my big cooler. You mentioned it was like "camping out"; I became very adept at cooking on my grill – breakfast (bacon, then eggs cooked in the bacon drippings), a pan of cornbread, even a pot of jambalaya!  Thank goodness for cast iron cookware :) Glad you’re safe.  Purrs to everyone in the area. Jill

Response:

They finally told us all to go home close to noon.  My apartment was safe, but my power was off for 5 days.  My phone also didn’t work, nor did any of

That’s something we can’t afford to have, maybe this is the year we buy a gasoline generator. We need electricity to run the filter in the fish tank, without it, in a few hours every fish would die. :( We can manage without power and the cats’ food doesn’t spoil, so we’re ok. It’s the fish I worry about. — Victor M. Martinez Owned and operated by the Fantastic Seven (TM)

Response:

Tuesday in Colorado, a powerful storm blew through. Rain, snow and extremely strong winds. They said gusts of 60mph near the mountains and the cities. But out on the prairie, where there is not much to slow the wind down, I do believe the wind was a lot stronger.

<snip I’m glad you came through without too much damage. Sorry about your friend’s roof. — Adrian (Owned by Snoopy & Bagheera) A house is not a home, without a cat.

Response:

Lots of purrs and best wishes for you and anyone else affected, — Polonca & Soncek

Tuesday in Colorado, a powerful storm blew through. Rain, snow and extremely strong winds. They said gusts of 60mph near the mountains and the cities. But out on the prairie, where there is not much to slow the wind down, I do believe the wind was a lot stronger.

<snip

Response:

Wow, glad to hear you are all ok. We live in a relatively new subdivision so there are no poles or wires above ground, but we still lose power once in a while when the main generator in another part of the town goes down. The thing I miss most is the air/conditioner and the refrigerator. I gotta buy a power generator. Jazz & his mama

One of my neighbors has a wind-powered generator. I wonder how the wind storm affected it?   — CATherine

Response:

Tuesday in Colorado, a powerful storm blew through.

<snip Wow – take care!  That sounds scary! -L.

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place between Sac. & Placerville w/all the wierd memorabilia etc. Was it called "Sam’s" or somethng like that?

Sam’s Club, IIRC.  We loved it too when we were living up there.  It had a general store, arcades, a movie memorabilia and prop museum, three different types of restaurants, and more.  It was so fun to visit and one could kill a whole day there without being bored. Pam S.

Response:

Uh, this is a little irreverent, Victor, but did the kids then have a big feast on the fallen birds? Or do they insist on live prey? Personally, it sounds like the answer to a cat’s prayer to Bast……manna from heaven.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Tuesday in Colorado, a powerful storm blew through. Rain, snow and extremely strong winds. They said gusts of 60mph near the mountains and the cities. But out on the prairie, where there is not much to slow the wind down, I do believe the wind was a lot stronger. YIKES! Sounds scary! I guess this is the time of year for violent storms for those of us not on the coastal areas. We had a nasty hail storm a couple of weeks ago that caused over 100 million dollars worth of damage. It was so nasty it killed hundreds of birds all over the city. Purrs to you! — Victor M. Martinez Owned and operated by the Fantastic Seven (TM)

Response:

Tuesday in Colorado, a powerful storm blew through.

How terrible, Catherine! I’m so glad to read that you’re all alright. Also very glad that Jeff is there to help you. — Marina, Frank, Nikki, and introducing: Mere! marina (dot) kurten (at) pp (dot) inet (dot) fi Pics at http://uk.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/frankiennikki/ and http://community.webshots.com/user/frankiennikki

Response:

Tuesday in Colorado, a powerful storm blew through. Rain, snow and extremely strong winds. They said gusts of 60mph near the mountains and the cities. But out on the prairie, where there is not much to slow the wind down, I do believe the wind was a lot stronger.

YIKES! Sounds scary! I guess this is the time of year for violent storms for those of us not on the coastal areas. We had a nasty hail storm a couple of weeks ago that caused over 100 million dollars worth of damage. It was so nasty it killed hundreds of birds all over the city. Purrs to you! — Victor M. Martinez Owned and operated by the Fantastic Seven (TM)

Response:

interesting things to say about OT– The Colorado Hurricane: Last week I was snowed in for two days with a heavy wet snow. The next few days was 70 degrees. Then this storm hit us. Now it is 70 again. This sure is crazy weather for April. I want ot see some flowers. The redbuds and apple tree should be blooming. At least I am seeing daffodils in the city where the weather is a bit warmer than the country.

Yesterday was clear and very warm in Sacramento. Today featured cold wind, overcast, sleet in some parts of the area, and even sightings of funnel clouds (we had a tornado a couple of months ago), plus clear/sunny/nice off and on. Wonder what tomorrow’s weather festivities will be like? — "The universe is quite robust in design and appears to be doing just fine on its own, incompetent support staff notwithstanding. :-) " – the Dennis formerly known as (evil), MCFL

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Years ago, when we lived in Bay Area, CA, I used to visit some pals in Sacramento….its population was less than 100,000 in those days. I loved its weather and was amazed, coming from where I was born/raised, that there was an area where you can enjoy warm temps. (OK, heat!) w/o sweating like a pig and watching your makeup place between Sac. & Placerville w/all the wierd memorabilia etc. Was it called "Sam’s" or somethng like that? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – interesting things to say about OT– The Colorado Hurricane: Last week I was snowed in for two days with a heavy wet snow. The next few days was 70 degrees. Then this storm hit us. Now it is 70 again. This sure is crazy weather for April. I want ot see some flowers. The redbuds and apple tree should be blooming. At least I am seeing daffodils in the city where the weather is a bit warmer than the country. Yesterday was clear and very warm in Sacramento. Today featured cold wind, overcast, sleet in some parts of the area, and even sightings of funnel clouds (we had a tornado a couple of months ago), plus clear/sunny/nice off and on. Wonder what tomorrow’s weather festivities will be like? — "The universe is quite robust in design and appears to be doing just fine on its own, incompetent support staff notwithstanding. :-) " – the Dennis formerly known as (evil), MCFL

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Tuesday in Colorado, a powerful storm blew through. Rain, snow and extremely strong winds. They said gusts of 60mph near the mountains and the cities. But out on the prairie, where there is not much to slow the wind down, I do believe the wind was a lot stronger. It was hard to drive with the wind hitting the side of the car. By the time I got to work, I was tired from my deathgrip on the steering wheel. I opened the door to get out and the wind slammed the door on my foot! It was like that all day. By the time I was done seeing clients, I was tireder from fighting the wind than I was from the work. As i drove home across the prairie, I noticed damages from the wind. Signs, storage sheds and even a portapotty at a construction site were rolling in the wind. But I didn’t have too much attention for seeing things like that as I was trying to keep the car on the road. Once i got home, I just relaxed for a moment before opening the door. I was so glad the driver’s door was on the lee side of the wind. Then Jeff came out to escort me to the house. He often does, knowing I am tired. He had bad news for me. No electricity. Well, that happens some times in the country. But I said it should come back on after awhile. He said, No. Then he turned me around and said look up the hill behind the house. So what do I see? Nothing. What should I see? Poles with the electric wires. The wind had hit the poles with hurricane force and snapped them like matchsticks. At 10:30 in the morning. Jeff had called the power company. They said they had so many poles down that they had borrowed crews from other power companies. And in many places the wires had snapped connections and were on the ground shorting out. We were luckier than many people out here. We live in a very old place with a real well; not just a pipe in the ground. My son set up a block and tackle and lowered a bucket in the well so we could have water. We have a wood stove so we could stay warm and cook. And we lit a lot of candles. It was kind of like camping. But I sure missed my computer. I am glad we have the power back on. We were out for about 30 hours. They got our six poles replaced late last night. But there are still a lot of broken poles to replace. I see trailers with loads of creosoted poles sitting at sites of downed poles, waiting their turn. A friend of mine lost her brand new roof. Now her insurance won’t pay for another one. Last week I was snowed in for two days with a heavy wet snow. The next few days was 70 degrees. Then this storm hit us. Now it is 70 again. This sure is crazy weather for April. I want ot see some flowers. The redbuds and apple tree should be blooming. At least I am seeing daffodils in the city where the weather is a bit warmer than the country.

Oh, CATherine, that’s scary!  Glad you are okay, and that you got the power back. Ginger-lyn Home Pages:   http://www.spiritrealm.com/summer/   http://www.angelfire.com/folk/glsummer (homepage & cats)   http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~summer/index.htm (genealogy)   http://www.i-love-cats.com/meow/glsummer/ (The Violence Against                                              Animals in Movies Website)

Response:

On 2005-04-08, Hopitus penned: ….Hopitus will be happy as h*** when all these weather threats and storms quit for the summer.

Um, you’re joking, right? Last summer, anyway, there were afternoon storms almost every day. Some were so intense that they flooded our parking lot.  I had to walk through 3 and 4 inch deep lakes to get to my car. Morning: bright and sunny.  Noon: bright and sunny.  3-4pm: sky is falling; cancel all outdoor plans for the evening.  5pm: bright and sunny, not a cloud in the sky. Welcome to Colorado! — monique, who spoils Oscar unmercifully pictures: http://www.bounceswoosh.org/rpca

Response:

Wow, glad to hear you are all ok. We live in a relatively new subdivision so there are no poles or wires above ground, but we still lose power once in a while when the main generator in another part of the town goes down. The thing I miss most is the air/conditioner and the refrigerator. I gotta buy a power generator. Jazz & his mama — Irulan from the stars we come to the stars we return from now until the end of time

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Tuesday in Colorado, a powerful storm blew through. Rain, snow and extremely strong winds. They said gusts of 60mph near the mountains and the cities. But out on the prairie, where there is not much to slow the wind down, I do believe the wind was a lot stronger. It was hard to drive with the wind hitting the side of the car. By the time I got to work, I was tired from my deathgrip on the steering wheel. I opened the door to get out and the wind slammed the door on my foot! It was like that all day. By the time I was done seeing clients, I was tireder from fighting the wind than I was from the work. As i drove home across the prairie, I noticed damages from the wind. Signs, storage sheds and even a portapotty at a construction site were rolling in the wind. But I didn’t have too much attention for seeing things like that as I was trying to keep the car on the road. Once i got home, I just relaxed for a moment before opening the door. I was so glad the driver’s door was on the lee side of the wind. Then Jeff came out to escort me to the house. He often does, knowing I am tired. He had bad news for me. No electricity. Well, that happens some times in the country. But I said it should come back on after awhile. He said, No. Then he turned me around and said look up the hill behind the house. So what do I see? Nothing. What should I see? Poles with the electric wires. The wind had hit the poles with hurricane force and snapped them like matchsticks. At 10:30 in the morning. Jeff had called the power company. They said they had so many poles down that they had borrowed crews from other power companies. And in many places the wires had snapped connections and were on the ground shorting out. We were luckier than many people out here. We live in a very old place with a real well; not just a pipe in the ground. My son set up a block and tackle and lowered a bucket in the well so we could have water. We have a wood stove so we could stay warm and cook. And we lit a lot of candles. It was kind of like camping. But I sure missed my computer. I am glad we have the power back on. We were out for about 30 hours. They got our six poles replaced late last night. But there are still a lot of broken poles to replace. I see trailers with loads of creosoted poles sitting at sites of downed poles, waiting their turn. A friend of mine lost her brand new roof. Now her insurance won’t pay for another one. Last week I was snowed in for two days with a heavy wet snow. The next few days was 70 degrees. Then this storm hit us. Now it is 70 again. This sure is crazy weather for April. I want ot see some flowers. The redbuds and apple tree should be blooming. At least I am seeing daffodils in the city where the weather is a bit warmer than the country. — CATherine

Response:

On 2005-04-08, CATherine penned: The wind had hit the poles with hurricane force and snapped them like matchsticks. At 10:30 in the morning. Jeff had called the power company. They said they had so many poles down that they had borrowed crews from other power companies. And in many places the wires had snapped connections and were on the ground shorting out.

Wow.  I didn’t even notice any unusual weather here in Boulder and Longmont. DH is disbelieving that the winds could have been that strong; do you know of an article somewhere I can show him? Last week I was snowed in for two days with a heavy wet snow. The next few days was 70 degrees. Then this storm hit us. Now it is 70 again.  This sure is crazy weather for April. I want ot see some flowers. The redbuds and apple tree should be blooming. At least I am seeing daffodils in the city where the weather is a bit warmer than the country.

I thought crazy weather was par for the course in Colorado.  I certainly get more colds here than I did in Virginia, which I attribute to the temp fluctuations. Glad to hear that you’re doing okay and that it was just the power. — monique, who spoils Oscar unmercifully pictures: http://www.bounceswoosh.org/rpca

Response:

One tiny bright spot.  If the trees haven’t bloomed yet, at least now they will bloom.  Those winds would have stripped the trees. Here’s to true spring.  Soon. Jo

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Tuesday in Colorado, a powerful storm blew through. Rain, snow and extremely strong winds. They said gusts of 60mph near the mountains and the cities. But out on the prairie, where there is not much to slow the wind down, I do believe the wind was a lot stronger. It was hard to drive with the wind hitting the side of the car. By the time I got to work, I was tired from my deathgrip on the steering wheel. I opened the door to get out and the wind slammed the door on my foot! It was like that all day. By the time I was done seeing clients, I was tireder from fighting the wind than I was from the work. As i drove home across the prairie, I noticed damages from the wind. Signs, storage sheds and even a portapotty at a construction site were rolling in the wind. But I didn’t have too much attention for seeing things like that as I was trying to keep the car on the road. Once i got home, I just relaxed for a moment before opening the door. I was so glad the driver’s door was on the lee side of the wind. Then Jeff came out to escort me to the house. He often does, knowing I am tired. He had bad news for me. No electricity. Well, that happens some times in the country. But I said it should come back on after awhile. He said, No. Then he turned me around and said look up the hill behind the house. So what do I see? Nothing. What should I see? Poles with the electric wires. The wind had hit the poles with hurricane force and snapped them like matchsticks. At 10:30 in the morning. Jeff had called the power company. They said they had so many poles down that they had borrowed crews from other power companies. And in many places the wires had snapped connections and were on the ground shorting out. We were luckier than many people out here. We live in a very old place with a real well; not just a pipe in the ground. My son set up a block and tackle and lowered a bucket in the well so we could have water. We have a wood stove so we could stay warm and cook. And we lit a lot of candles. It was kind of like camping. But I sure missed my computer. I am glad we have the power back on. We were out for about 30 hours. They got our six poles replaced late last night. But there are still a lot of broken poles to replace. I see trailers with loads of creosoted poles sitting at sites of downed poles, waiting their turn. A friend of mine lost her brand new roof. Now her insurance won’t pay for another one. Last week I was snowed in for two days with a heavy wet snow. The next few days was 70 degrees. Then this storm hit us. Now it is 70 again. This sure is crazy weather for April. I want ot see some flowers. The redbuds and apple tree should be blooming. At least I am seeing daffodils in the city where the weather is a bit warmer than the country. — CATherine

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Tuesday in Colorado, a powerful storm blew through. Rain, snow and extremely strong winds. They said gusts of 60mph near the mountains and the cities. But out on the prairie, where there is not much to slow the wind down, I do believe the wind was a lot stronger. It was hard to drive with the wind hitting the side of the car. By the time I got to work, I was tired from my deathgrip on the steering wheel. I opened the door to get out and the wind slammed the door on my foot! It was like that all day. By the time I was done seeing clients, I was tireder from fighting the wind than I was from the work. As i drove home across the prairie, I noticed damages from the wind. Signs, storage sheds and even a portapotty at a construction site were rolling in the wind. But I didn’t have too much attention for seeing things like that as I was trying to keep the car on the road. Once i got home, I just relaxed for a moment before opening the door. I was so glad the driver’s door was on the lee side of the wind. Then Jeff came out to escort me to the house. He often does, knowing I am tired. He had bad news for me. No electricity. Well, that happens some times in the country. But I said it should come back on after awhile. He said, No. Then he turned me around and said look up the hill behind the house. So what do I see? Nothing. What should I see? Poles with the electric wires. The wind had hit the poles with hurricane force and snapped them like matchsticks. At 10:30 in the morning. Jeff had called the power company. They said they had so many poles down that they had borrowed crews from other power companies. And in many places the wires had snapped connections and were on the ground shorting out. We were luckier than many people out here. We live in a very old place with a real well; not just a pipe in the ground. My son set up a block and tackle and lowered a bucket in the well so we could have water. We have a wood stove so we could stay warm and cook. And we lit a lot of candles. It was kind of like camping. But I sure missed my computer. I am glad we have the power back on. We were out for about 30 hours. They got our six poles replaced late last night. But there are still a lot of broken poles to replace. I see trailers with loads of creosoted poles sitting at sites of downed poles, waiting their turn. A friend of mine lost her brand new roof. Now her insurance won’t pay for another one. Last week I was snowed in for two days with a heavy wet snow. The next few days was 70 degrees. Then this storm hit us. Now it is 70 again. This sure is crazy weather for April. I want ot see some flowers. The redbuds and apple tree should be blooming. At least I am seeing daffodils in the city where the weather is a bit warmer than the country. — CATherine Oh my goodness! I had no idea. I’m so glad it wasn’t worse for you. I’m sorry about your friend’s roof. I don’t understand insurance at all. I mean, what do you pay for???

It looks like it hit you hard after it left Utah.  We woke up to six inches of very wet snow.  It was gone by the next day.  The flowers are still blooming.  Now we are expecting snow and rain for the next five days.  It was like summer today.    MLB

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Tuesday in Colorado, a powerful storm blew through. Rain, snow and extremely strong winds. They said gusts of 60mph near the mountains and the cities. But out on the prairie, where there is not much to slow the wind down, I do believe the wind was a lot stronger. It was hard to drive with the wind hitting the side of the car. By the time I got to work, I was tired from my deathgrip on the steering wheel. I opened the door to get out and the wind slammed the door on my foot! It was like that all day. By the time I was done seeing clients, I was tireder from fighting the wind than I was from the work. As i drove home across the prairie, I noticed damages from the wind. Signs, storage sheds and even a portapotty at a construction site were rolling in the wind. But I didn’t have too much attention for seeing things like that as I was trying to keep the car on the road. Once i got home, I just relaxed for a moment before opening the door. I was so glad the driver’s door was on the lee side of the wind. Then Jeff came out to escort me to the house. He often does, knowing I am tired. He had bad news for me. No electricity. Well, that happens some times in the country. But I said it should come back on after awhile. He said, No. Then he turned me around and said look up the hill behind the house. So what do I see? Nothing. What should I see? Poles with the electric wires. The wind had hit the poles with hurricane force and snapped them like matchsticks. At 10:30 in the morning. Jeff had called the power company. They said they had so many poles down that they had borrowed crews from other power companies. And in many places the wires had snapped connections and were on the ground shorting out. We were luckier than many people out here. We live in a very old place with a real well; not just a pipe in the ground. My son set up a block and tackle and lowered a bucket in the well so we could have water. We have a wood stove so we could stay warm and cook. And we lit a lot of candles. It was kind of like camping. But I sure missed my computer. I am glad we have the power back on. We were out for about 30 hours. They got our six poles replaced late last night. But there are still a lot of broken poles to replace. I see trailers with loads of creosoted poles sitting at sites of downed poles, waiting their turn. A friend of mine lost her brand new roof. Now her insurance won’t pay for another one. Last week I was snowed in for two days with a heavy wet snow. The next few days was 70 degrees. Then this storm hit us. Now it is 70 again. This sure is crazy weather for April. I want ot see some flowers. The redbuds and apple tree should be blooming. At least I am seeing daffodils in the city where the weather is a bit warmer than the country. — CATherine

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Tuesday in Colorado, a powerful storm blew through. Rain, snow and extremely strong winds. They said gusts of 60mph near the mountains and the cities. But out on the prairie, where there is not much to slow the wind down, I do believe the wind was a lot stronger. It was hard to drive with the wind hitting the side of the car. By the time I got to work, I was tired from my deathgrip on the steering wheel. I opened the door to get out and the wind slammed the door on my foot! It was like that all day. By the time I was done seeing clients, I was tireder from fighting the wind than I was from the work. As i drove home across the prairie, I noticed damages from the wind. Signs, storage sheds and even a portapotty at a construction site were rolling in the wind. But I didn’t have too much attention for seeing things like that as I was trying to keep the car on the road. Once i got home, I just relaxed for a moment before opening the door. I was so glad the driver’s door was on the lee side of the wind. Then Jeff came out to escort me to the house. He often does, knowing I am tired. He had bad news for me. No electricity. Well, that happens some times in the country. But I said it should come back on after awhile. He said, No. Then he turned me around and said look up the hill behind the house. So what do I see? Nothing. What should I see? Poles with the electric wires. The wind had hit the poles with hurricane force and snapped them like matchsticks. At 10:30 in the morning. Jeff had called the power company. They said they had so many poles down that they had borrowed crews from other power companies. And in many places the wires had snapped connections and were on the ground shorting out. We were luckier than many people out here. We live in a very old place with a real well; not just a pipe in the ground. My son set up a block and tackle and lowered a bucket in the well so we could have water. We have a wood stove so we could stay warm and cook. And we lit a lot of candles. It was kind of like camping. But I sure missed my computer. I am glad we have the power back on. We were out for about 30 hours. They got our six poles replaced late last night. But there are still a lot of broken poles to replace. I see trailers with loads of creosoted poles sitting at sites of downed poles, waiting their turn. A friend of mine lost her brand new roof. Now her insurance won’t pay for another one. Last week I was snowed in for two days with a heavy wet snow. The next few days was 70 degrees. Then this storm hit us. Now it is 70 again. This sure is crazy weather for April. I want ot see some flowers. The redbuds and apple tree should be blooming. At least I am seeing daffodils in the city where the weather is a bit warmer than the country. — CATherine

Oh my goodness! I had no idea. I’m so glad it wasn’t worse for you. I’m sorry about your friend’s roof. I don’t understand insurance at all. I mean, what do you pay for???

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Question:

Hi folks I’ve been thinking (always dangerous) of a bg logging idea. I’m working on it for me but I wondered if other ppl would find it useful. Basically, I’m usually at an internet-connected computer. What I’m trying to do is to sort out a Perl script/php front-end so that lets say after a days worth of readings I can upload them to the website in either csv format, directly or via SMS. Click one button then u get your readings on that date. click another one and you get daily graphical output, or weekly, monthly or yearly, or another button and a linear regression (more important for a t2). So let’s say, once completed, I do a web front-end where people can create their own glucose account and as well as themselves, give their doctors access, so that they can recall historic readings and plot them to .jpgs. Would anyone want to use such a service? It would always be free to use, (it uses free software). Technical support may not be, though, but that would only happen if many people used it. The reason I’m doing it is, because it would be hosted on a server in a datacentre, even if I lose all my stored bg data on my local machine, the server will always be there. And all I would need would be a computer with a web browser installed, because the server stores the data and does all the processing. Maybe a WAP front-end. comments? — John38 :

Response:

Why store it :) My readings are used as one time adjustments / info and promptly forgotten. I can remember the general trends of how most foods affect me and only use the meter to trim and adjust an errant reading when i get one or to test for how much insulin i need to take with whatever meal i’m eating. Not saying you shouldn’t record it … i just can’t see the point from my own point of view :-) — Patrick / Fester Type 1 Diabetic. Dx’d 1993. On 28u Lantus and whatever Novorapid my meter says i need.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi folks I’ve been thinking (always dangerous) of a bg logging idea. I’m working on it for me but I wondered if other ppl would find it useful. Basically, I’m usually at an internet-connected computer. What I’m trying to do is to sort out a Perl script/php front-end so that lets say after a days worth of readings I can upload them to the website in either csv format, directly or via SMS. Click one button then u get your readings on that date. click another one and you get daily graphical output, or weekly, monthly or yearly, or another button and a linear regression (more important for a t2). So let’s say, once completed, I do a web front-end where people can create their own glucose account and as well as themselves, give their doctors access, so that they can recall historic readings and plot them to .jpgs. Would anyone want to use such a service? It would always be free to use, (it uses free software). Technical support may not be, though, but that would only happen if many people used it. The reason I’m doing it is, because it would be hosted on a server in a datacentre, even if I lose all my stored bg data on my local machine, the server will always be there. And all I would need would be a computer with a web browser installed, because the server stores the data and does all the processing. Maybe a WAP front-end. comments? — John38 :

Response:

Why store it :) My readings are used as one time adjustments / info and promptly forgotten. I can remember the general trends of how most foods affect me and only use the meter to trim and adjust an errant reading when i get one or to test for how much insulin i need to take with whatever meal i’m eating. Not saying you shouldn’t record it … i just can’t see the point from my own point of view :-)

I agree with that, Patrick. My pov is the past has gone and therefore cannot be changed; the future hasn’t got here yet, and therefore does not exist; we live here and now, always here and now. Sound like ZaZen? Well, that’s exactly what it is. No need for anyone to agree or disagree, just each do your own thing. Each will accept the consequences, bad or good, of their own action, whether they like it or not. The consequences cannot be avoided. — Alan de gustibus non disputandum est – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi folks I’ve been thinking (always dangerous) of a bg logging idea. I’m working on it for me but I wondered if other ppl would find it useful. Basically, I’m usually at an internet-connected computer. What I’m trying to do is to sort out a Perl script/php front-end so that lets say after a days worth of readings I can upload them to the website in either csv format, directly or via SMS. Click one button then u get your readings on that date. click another one and you get daily graphical output, or weekly, monthly or yearly, or another button and a linear regression (more important for a t2). So let’s say, once completed, I do a web front-end where people can create their own glucose account and as well as themselves, give their doctors access, so that they can recall historic readings and plot them to .jpgs. Would anyone want to use such a service? It would always be free to use, (it uses free software). Technical support may not be, though, but that would only happen if many people used it. The reason I’m doing it is, because it would be hosted on a server in a datacentre, even if I lose all my stored bg data on my local machine, the server will always be there. And all I would need would be a computer with a web browser installed, because the server stores the data and does all the processing. Maybe a WAP front-end. comments? — John38 :

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi folks I’ve been thinking (always dangerous) of a bg logging idea. I’m working on it for me but I wondered if other ppl would find it useful. Basically, I’m usually at an internet-connected computer. What I’m trying to do is to sort out a Perl script/php front-end so that lets say after a days worth of readings I can upload them to the website in either csv format, directly or via SMS. Click one button then u get your readings on that date. click another one and you get daily graphical output, or weekly, monthly or yearly, or another button and a linear regression (more important for a t2). So let’s say, once completed, I do a web front-end where people can create their own glucose account and as well as themselves, give their doctors access, so that they can recall historic readings and plot them to .jpgs. Would anyone want to use such a service? It would always be free to use, (it uses free software). Technical support may not be, though, but that would only happen if many people used it. The reason I’m doing it is, because it would be hosted on a server in a datacentre, even if I lose all my stored bg data on my local machine, the server will always be there. And all I would need would be a computer with a web browser installed, because the server stores the data and does all the processing. Maybe a WAP front-end. comments?

just use a spreadsheet, like I do, it’s much easier Excel Rules !!

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Not saying you shouldn’t record it … i just can’t see the point from my own point of view :-)

well, storage is really most applicable for a t2 or t1 in honeymoon, I suppose, so they can see trends… I like to see the control over a year lets say and also (this is q important as well) what I did in order to move whatever trend one way or another. For me, it’s useful, for others it might be less so. I feel if I can’t see what’s gone on previously then I cant make an intelligently predictive judgement. — John38

Response:

Hi Pete, thank you for sharing your thoughts. I’ll reply in-line: I personally have found that the best way is to maintain a routine

This is not possible for me – I work shifts, and my life is more disorganised than I’d like it to be and that means testing and writing the data down.

I do this as well. You can do it anywhere and there is no need to be ‘hooked’ to a machine.

My fault for implying ‘hooked’. let me explain: sometimes I’ll go for days just taking my readings, looking at the number, noting what I’ve eaten, before putting it into a database. But I don’t want that database just on one machine, and I don’t want it to be tied to a specific operating system. What if I happen to be on a Mac? or a solaris box? what happens if my computer is broken? or stolen? what happens if it is lost? If I lose my meter then that’s a weeks readings lost (I write to my database on average once every 5 days or so). If I lose my database computer (my laptop running XP), everything is gone. If I backup my results to CD periodically, (let’s say once a month), I have to ‘waste’ a CD (a months results might take 2MB tops, on a 700MB CD). Then I have to think about the CD. We are all ‘hooked’ to a machine in one way or another. I think more hooked with your method than with the one I propose for the reasons I’ve outlined above. My method avoids all this – all you need is a web browser on an internet-connected machine, on any operating system, which can be anywhere. However, I also use a free program – as many others in here do – to periodically enter the data into to produce averages, graphs and other usefull stuff.

I think you mean Health, yes it is very good. But see the paragraph above. 2] Any information sent to the web is vulnerable to abuse and corruption and you are totally dependant upon access

access doesn’t have to be instantaneous. I’d want the service to be more of an adjunct than a replacement for existing strategies. How do you mean ‘vulnerable to abuse and corruption’? The user would access through ssl with their unique username/password pair. Their username would bear no resemblance to their real name and the only contact info required would be an email address. Backups of data would occur via a nightly automatic job to a remote site. thanks again for your thoughts all the best — John38

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[snip]  For long term use, without a knowledge of the carb input per meal, the blood  sugar reading isn’t of much use to me.

Of course.  Without a knowledge of how fast or slow those carbs are, the quantity of  carbs data is not of much use to me.

Which will be incorporated into the data. At the moment, I’m just writing the perl script – I want table then output, that’s it. Refinements I’d add later. At present, i just want to use it for fasting BGs, for no other reason than to see how useful it is in practice. Food functionality is for a later date (it isn’t a functioning system yet).  Without information about what meds I took and when I took the medication(s)  relative to when  I tested, the information isn’t that useful either.

True, and most important for t1. However, see above paragraph. It can be added, but I’m working on the basics for now.  If you can somehow allow for this kind of more complex data entry and  graphing, you might be able to come up with a more useful tool.

Yep, point well made. Thanks for your input. — John38 – seemingly LADA            

Response:

John, I’m another person (not on insulin) who after years of logging blood sugars has concluded that the main purpose of logging is to keep me honest and to see how I am responding to specific foods. The "keeping me honest" factor expires right after I test. The knowledge that I am going to have to test if I eat something high in carbs helps me stay aware of what I am doing to my body.  I sometimes test to see if my blood sugar is low enough to allow myself some small indulgence. For long term use, without a knowledge of the carb input per meal, the blood sugar reading isn’t of much use to me. Without a knowledge of how fast or slow those carbs are, the quantity of carbs data is not of much use to me. Without information about what meds I took and when I took the medication(s) relative to when  I tested, the information isn’t that useful either. If you can somehow allow for this kind of more complex data entry and graphing, you might be able to come up with a more useful tool.  – Jenny  - Low Carbing for 5 years. Below goal for weight. Type 2 diabetes, hba1c 5.7 . Cut the carbs to respond to my  email address! Jenny’s new site: What they Don’t Tell You About Diabetes http://www.geocities.com/lottadata4u/ Jenny’s Low Carb Diet Facts & Figures http://www.geocities.com/jenny_the_bean/ Looking for help controlling your blood sugar? Visit  http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/Newly%20Diagnosed.htm

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi folks I’ve been thinking (always dangerous) of a bg logging idea. I’m working on it for me but I wondered if other ppl would find it useful. Basically, I’m usually at an internet-connected computer. What I’m trying to do is to sort out a Perl script/php front-end so that lets say after a days worth of readings I can upload them to the website in either csv format, directly or via SMS. Click one button then u get your readings on that date. click another one and you get daily graphical output, or weekly, monthly or yearly, or another button and a linear regression (more important for a t2). So let’s say, once completed, I do a web front-end where people can create their own glucose account and as well as themselves, give their doctors access, so that they can recall historic readings and plot them to .jpgs. Would anyone want to use such a service? It would always be free to use, (it uses free software). Technical support may not be, though, but that would only happen if many people used it. The reason I’m doing it is, because it would be hosted on a server in a datacentre, even if I lose all my stored bg data on my local machine, the server will always be there. And all I would need would be a computer with a web browser installed, because the server stores the data and does all the processing. Maybe a WAP front-end. comments? — John38 :

Response:

[snip]  Well each to their own. Your proposed ’system’ would bugger  me up if I went on one of my hikes/camping treks.

It’s not meant to be an immediate thing – I mean, as you rightly say, low-tech solution in short term is usually best. My idea is for the medium to longer term. So after the end of a week, or a month, let’s say – data is uploaded. It’s meant to be an adjunct to immediate logging, not a replacement for it. So, if I were to hike or whatever, or to go on holiday, I’d use a paper and pencil for the duration, then upload when convenient. That’s all it is; it’s about convenience. it’s a bit of work in the short term, but in the long term it should, hopefully, prove supremely convenient. For me and my doc, anyway :) I realise my situation may be much different to other peoples. For example, I can email my doc. I can say if I think there’s a problem, give him a login to the server so he can see my graphs. I would only have to email him a link and a description of the problem. He wouldnt have to have anything special on his computer to do this, and neither would I. It’s a bit acedemic at the moment, because the program isn’t in place, and what works for me might not work for other people. The idea behind it concerns just my needs, it was only afterwards where I wondered if it would be useful for anyone else. The health program didn’t do what I wanted when I first looked at it. I wanted something more flexible, so I went with Exel. Now, I’m tiring of excel because sometimes a windows box is unavailable.. With regard to concerns with security, I can back up automatically to 2 other sites.. with all kinds of security enhancements. This to me is better even than having it backed up to one location on cd. — John38 – seemingly LADA            

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi folks I’ve been thinking (always dangerous) of a bg logging idea. I’m working on it for me but I wondered if other ppl would find it useful. Basically, I’m usually at an internet-connected computer. What I’m trying to do is to sort out a Perl script/php front-end so that lets say after a days worth of readings I can upload them to the website in either csv format, directly or via SMS. Click one button then u get your readings on that date. click another one and you get daily graphical output, or weekly, monthly or yearly, or another button and a linear regression (more important for a t2). So let’s say, once completed, I do a web front-end where people can create their own glucose account and as well as themselves, give their doctors access, so that they can recall historic readings and plot them to .jpgs. Would anyone want to use such a service? It would always be free to use, (it uses free software). Technical support may not be, though, but that would only happen if many people used it. The reason I’m doing it is, because it would be hosted on a server in a datacentre, even if I lose all my stored bg data on my local machine, the server will always be there. And all I would need would be a computer with a web browser installed, because the server stores the data and does all the processing. Maybe a WAP front-end. comments?

I’d have done it in ASP, but that’s beside the point ;) In addition to CSV you might want to consider XML.  There are many forms of data collection of course and everyone will be slightly different. Your intention as stated is to provide something that is flexible by location.  However, you might also want to consider flexibility by software. I use a palm, others use Health, other Excel.  If you were to define an XML format for upload, it would open the door to allow any application written with this in mind to interface with it.  You could either do this from the start or build it in later.  Its just another parser in effect.  You would find the apps updated to generate the upload file automatically.  There’s a lot of hobbyists & pro programmers out there. Making the only upload interface CSV will be a major support headache surely? But the BG on its own may not be enough, although a good starting point certainly.  I have my bgs on a palm Handbase DB and a second DB with my bloods.  You might want to consider a look at the Health data format and use that as the basis for the data to be stored – phased of course. But what you’re basically looking at is an online backup more than anything else.  It suits your purpose well, but I do not really think it will appeal that much to anyone else I’m afraid.  Good solution to your problem tho. Lemme know how you get on.  I’l be sticking with my palm backed up to my pc and networked backup though I’m afraid. Cheers, VBH T2/UK/A1c 5.8/ 1000Met/Dx Oct-03

Response:

 I’d have done it in ASP, but that’s beside the point ;)

aggghhaaa! spawn of satan!!! :)  In addition to CSV you might want to consider XML.  There are many forms  of data collection of course and everyone will be slightly different.  Your intention as stated is to provide something that is flexible by  location.  However, you might also want to consider flexibility by software.

Thanks for a very useful suggestion, one which I hadn’t considered, prob because it was obvious.  Lemme know how you get on.  I’l be sticking with my palm backed up to my  pc and networked backup though I’m afraid.

Will do – cheers — John38 –              

Response:

Not saying you shouldn’t record it … i just can’t see the point from my own point of view :-) well, storage is really most applicable for a t2 or t1 in honeymoon, I suppose, so they can see trends… I like to see the control over a year lets say and also (this is q important as well) what I did in order to move whatever trend one way or another. For me, it’s useful, for others it might be less so. I feel if I can’t see what’s gone on previously then I cant make an intelligently predictive judgement.

I tend to find it encouraging to look back at what was going on a few months ago and what’s going on now [much lower numbers], so I know I’m doing the right things. Same with the weight graph: I’ve recently been through another "plateau" phase, where the weight wouldn’t shift off 75 kg for 4 weeks, then started moving again [now 73! 11 1/2 stone in old money!]. When I hit these plateaus, I bring up the "year to date" graph, just for the encouragement. Don’t know if I’d use a web-based thing, but I’d be willing to give it a try, when/if you get it up and running. Maggie

Response:

With regard to concerns with security, I can back up automatically to 2 other sites.. with all kinds of security enhancements. This to me is better even than having it backed up to one location on cd.

I’d be interested in your setup – I’m just about to implement cross-site backups for Win2K/XP clients to two central sites; I’m looking at Bacula   to two Linux servers. L3K

Response:

[now 73! 11 1/2 stone in old money!].

Wow, great going, Maggie! Nicky. — HgBA1C 10.5/6.4/<6  Weight 95/83/72 1g Metformin, 75mg Thyroxine T2 DX 05/2004

Response:

Question:

I dunno, one of the Holy Bowl’s prime objectives is to suck :-) Yowie I hopefully asked the woman if the campground had flush toilets and hot showers, and she was kind of evasive, as if she either isn’t sure or maybe it’s more primitive than that and she didn’t want to tell me. When I finish unpacking and dig up her email address, I’ll query her again.

I heard something on the TV about a campground that has started offering wireless internet connections for campers who just HAVE to get online – I have no idea what I was on at the time, but think it might have been Good Morning America this morning. I say I heard it since the TV is usually on, but I think the cats watch it more than I do. — Steve Touchstone, faithful servant of Sammy, Little Bit and Rocky Home Page: http://www.sirinet.net/~stouchst/index.html Cat Pix: http://www.sirinet.net/~stouchst/animals.html

Response:

I dunno, one of the Holy Bowl’s prime objectives is to suck :-) Yowie I hopefully asked the woman if the campground had flush toilets and hot showers, and she was kind of evasive, as if she either isn’t sure or maybe it’s more primitive than that and she didn’t want to tell me. When I finish unpacking and dig up her email address, I’ll query her again. Annie

Ah, here I may just be able to help!  John (the traveling arteeest) has a campground guide book that tells all about such things.  And, since he lives (when he’s at home) in Arkansas, he might even already know the answer. I’ll query him about it tomorrow and report back :) Jill

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – That’s it. It’s a sign. We have to go now. Be sure to tell your family and friends its a "pilgrimage" though. Make it sound very mysterious and maybe even deeply religious. That way they won’t just think you’re a fruit loop. Sherry Toad Suck is a religious experience, honest.  I was struck by the mystery, beauty, and total surrealism of the place.  It is a place made to order for an RPCA gathering.  We must all gather in Toad Suck Arkansas next July or our cats will never forgive us. Pam S. who’s already told the relatives that she will be unavailable next year due to a prior commitment.  Rob says that I should be commited.

You know, this is one gathering of "nuts" I might just be able to make :) Arkansas is in my back yard, so to speak.  Well, okay, it’s across the river which isn’t in my back yard, although if it keeps raining like it has been it damned near will be. Jill

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I dunno, one of the Holy Bowl’s prime objectives is to suck :-) Yowie I hopefully asked the woman if the campground had flush toilets and hot showers, and she was kind of evasive, as if she either isn’t sure or maybe it’s more primitive than that and she didn’t want to tell me. When I finish unpacking and dig up her email address, I’ll query her again. Annie Ah, here I may just be able to help!  John (the traveling arteeest) has a campground guide book that tells all about such things.  And, since he lives (when he’s at home) in Arkansas, he might even already know the answer. I’ll query him about it tomorrow and report back :)

Don’t think we’ll make it to Toad Suck next July, but I’m sure the "local" RPCA’s can get together and suck toads. No, wait a minute, that isn’t right. How ’bout eating raw fish?  Tish & I know of a fine Sushi restaurant in the local area, and I’m sure we can join in the merryment from there. Other Aussies are of course welcome to join us, or organise a Toad Suck festival of their own. My digital camera can record 30 seconds worth of video, I’m sure we can upload the "meeting" somewhere to join in with the rest of the festival. Maybe even upload to www.catslaves.org? Yowie

Response:

Don’t think we’ll make it to Toad Suck next July, but I’m sure the "local" RPCA’s can get together and suck toads. No, wait a minute, that isn’t right. How ’bout eating raw fish?  … Yowie

The woman who lives there said that the guys who work on the barges used to (maybe still do) stop for beer at a certain establishment when they got off work.  Someone saw them sitting there and commented that they looked like a bunch of toads sucking beer.  Hence, toad suck does not involve actually sucking toads.  It just helps to look like one.  I suppose warts are optional. Even if you can’t pass for a toad, you still could keep the original spirit by sucking down a few beers. Annie

Response:

… There’s some information about camping here: http://www.swl.usace.army.mil/parks/toadsuck/camping.html

Thanks, Jeanne. The Toad Suck campground has flush toilets and hot showers.  Hooray. I wonder, though, about the electricity.  They may only allow motor homes and such. They do have a limited number of picnic sites that can be rented for a day or half day.  Maybe we could get a tour of the Toad Suck dam. Annie

Response:

In the fine newsgroup "rec.pets.cats.anecdotes", Steve Touchstone I heard something on the TV about a campground that has started offering wireless internet connections for campers who just HAVE to get online – I have no idea what I was on at the time, but think it might have been Good Morning America this morning. I say I heard it since the TV is usually on, but I think the cats watch it more than I do.

There should be wireless access everywhere!  ;) — Cheryl

Response:

In the fine newsgroup "rec.pets.cats.anecdotes", "Annie Wxill" My grandsons’ other grandparents live in Conway.  There was a summer maybe 10 years ago the kids were wearing Toad Suck festival t-shirts most of the summer. Thanks for the info. Jo Glad to be of service. Just what does a Toad Suck festival t-shirt look like? Annie

Awww… I don’t see any answer to this. :|  After reading this, I wanted to know too!! — Cheryl

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In the fine newsgroup "rec.pets.cats.anecdotes", "Annie Wxill" My grandsons’ other grandparents live in Conway.  There was a summer maybe 10 years ago the kids were wearing Toad Suck festival t-shirts most of the summer. Thanks for the info. Jo Glad to be of service. Just what does a Toad Suck festival t-shirt look like? Annie Awww… I don’t see any answer to this. :|  After reading this, I wanted to know too!!

http://www.toadsuck.org/tshirt.html Jeanne Hedge, as directed by Natasha http://www.jhedge.com

Response:

  John (the traveling arteeest) has a campground guide book that tells all about such things.  And, since he lives (when he’s at home) in Arkansas, he might even already know the answer. I’ll query him about it tomorrow and report back :) Jill

Thanks. I’ll be looking forward to your update. Best wishes to John. Annie

Response:

Apologies for the REPOST – I never saw the original come through… Hi group, We are back from Dallas, and I see that you’ve been your usual chatty selves. Purrs, hugs, skritches and prayers for all in need. While in Dallas, I met a woman from Arkansas. I asked her if she knew anything about Toad Suck and she said she lived in Conway, home of the Toad Suck Festival.

I just googled "Toad Suck", and the first entry returned was for http://www.toadsuck.org  <— homepage for Toad Suck Daze festival Here’s where you can see (and order) an official Toad Suck Daze festival t-shirt (for charity):  http://www.toadsuck.org/tshirt.html And here’s "The Legend of Toad Suck": What the HECK does Toad Suck Mean?  Well, The answer is quite Simple … Long ago, steamboats traveled the Arkansas River when the water was at the right depth. When it wasn’t, the captains and their crew tied up to wait where the Toad Suck Lock and Dam now spans the river. While they waited, they refreshed themselves at the local tavern there, to the dismay of the folks living nearby, who said: "They suck on the bottle ’til they swell up like toads." Hence, the name Toad Suck. The tavern is long gone, but the legend and fun live on at Toad Suck Daze. (http://www.toadsuck.org/legend.html) She’s also a cat slave and her owners are rescues. I told her about RPCA and possible plans for a gathering next year, and she said the campground there was named Toad Suck. I gave her the RPCA newsgroup name and she said she might drop in here.

There’s some information about camping here: http://www.swl.usace.army.mil/parks/toadsuck/camping.html According to that information, there appears to be 6 campgrounds in the area, varying in charges and facilities (some have flush toilets and showers, some have no facilities at all) For those who might be interested in attending the RPCA Toad Suck Follies but have an aversion to chiggers <g and aren’t crazy about camping, there also appears to be several major hotels/motels in the Toad Suck (Conway, Arkansas) area.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I told her about RPCA and possible plans for a gathering next year, and she said the campground there was named Toad Suck. I gave her the RPCA newsgroup name and she said she might drop in here. Annie Toad Suck!  Toad Suck! <bowing in worship ;) Theresa That’s it. It’s a sign. We have to go now. Be sure to tell your family and friends its a "pilgrimage" though. Make it sound very mysterious and maybe even deeply religious. That way they won’t just think you’re a fruit loop. Sherry

Why I am the Official Family Fruit Loop. ;) Theresa Stinky Pictures: http://community.webshots.com/album/125591586JWEFwh My Blog: http://www.humanitas.blogspot.com alt.tv.frasier FAQ: http://www.im-listening.net/FAQ/

Response:

yodeled: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi group, We are back from Dallas, and I see that you’ve been your usual chatty selves. Purrs, hugs, skritches and prayers for all in need. While in Dallas, I met a woman from Arkansas. I asked her if she knew anything about Toad Suck and she said she lived in Conway, home of the Toad Suck Festival. She’s also a cat slave and her owners are rescues. I told her about RPCA and possible plans for a gathering next year, and she said the campground there was named Toad Suck. I gave her the RPCA newsgroup name and she said she might drop in here. Annie Thank you.  You just restored my sanity, or some shred of it.  Every time I would see "Toad Suck" on the group it would jangle a buried memory.  One of those "I’m supposed to know something about that but for the life of me don’t have a clue what" My grandsons’ other grandparents live in Conway.  There was a summer maybe 10 years ago the kids were wearing Toad Suck festival t-shirts most of the summer. Thanks for the info.

And you were probably trying to block it all out. ;) Theresa Stinky Pictures: http://community.webshots.com/album/125591586JWEFwh My Blog: http://www.humanitas.blogspot.com alt.tv.frasier FAQ: http://www.im-listening.net/FAQ/

Response:

 Toad Suck!  Toad Suck! <bowing in worship ;)   That’s it. It’s a sign. We have to go now. Be sure to tell your family   and friends its a "pilgrimage" though. Make it sound very mysterious and   maybe even deeply religious. That way they won’t just think you’re a   fruit loop. I don’t think anything with the word "suck" in it could be made to sound religious. (Though I guess it depends on the religion…)

I dunno, one of the Holy Bowl’s prime objectives is to suck :-) Yowie

Response:

That’s it. It’s a sign. We have to go now. Be sure to tell your family and friends its a "pilgrimage" though. Make it sound very mysterious and maybe even deeply religious. That way they won’t just think you’re a fruit loop. Sherry

Too late.  They already know I’m a fruit loop. Daughter Christine (of barn kittens fame) warned me of the dangers of meeting people from the Internet when I accepted JoJo’s kind offer to show us around Pittsburgh when we were there for DH’s surgery in April.  I think part of the reason she joined us was to look out for her father and for me. During the tour, JoJo’s boyfriend called her cell to make sure she wasn’t in any danger from the cat group crazies she was driving around town. We may be loopy, but we’re not dangerous. Annie, who thinks it’s kind of cute when her kids have to put up with a few shenanigans

Response:

I dunno, one of the Holy Bowl’s prime objectives is to suck :-) Yowie

I hopefully asked the woman if the campground had flush toilets and hot showers, and she was kind of evasive, as if she either isn’t sure or maybe it’s more primitive than that and she didn’t want to tell me. When I finish unpacking and dig up her email address, I’ll query her again. Annie

Response:

My grandsons’ other grandparents live in Conway.  There was a summer maybe 10 years ago the kids were wearing Toad Suck festival t-shirts most of the summer. Thanks for the info. Jo

Glad to be of service. Just what does a Toad Suck festival t-shirt look like? Annie

Response:

Hi group, We are back from Dallas, and I see that you’ve been your usual chatty selves. Purrs, hugs, skritches and prayers for all in need. While in Dallas, I met a woman from Arkansas. I asked her if she knew anything about Toad Suck and she said she lived in Conway, home of the Toad Suck Festival.

I just googled "Toad Suck", and the first entry returned was for http://www.toadsuck.org  <— homepage for Toad Suck Daze festival Here’s where you can see (and order) an official Toad Suck Daze festival t-shirt (for charity):  http://www.toadsuck.org/tshirt.html And here’s "The Legend of Toad Suck": What the HECK does Toad Suck Mean?  Well, The answer is quite Simple … Long ago, steamboats traveled the Arkansas River when the water was at the right depth. When it wasn’t, the captains and their crew tied up to wait where the Toad Suck Lock and Dam now spans the river. While they waited, they refreshed themselves at the local tavern there, to the dismay of the folks living nearby, who said: "They suck on the bottle ’til they swell up like toads." Hence, the name Toad Suck. The tavern is long gone, but the legend and fun live on at Toad Suck Daze. (http://www.toadsuck.org/legend.html) She’s also a cat slave and her owners are rescues. I told her about RPCA and possible plans for a gathering next year, and she said the campground there was named Toad Suck. I gave her the RPCA newsgroup name and she said she might drop in here.

There’s some information about camping here: http://www.swl.usace.army.mil/parks/toadsuck/camping.html According to that information, there appears to be 6 campgrounds in the area, varying in charges and facilities (some have flush toilets and showers, some have no facilities at all) For those who might be interested in attending the RPCA Toad Suck Follies but have an aversion to chiggers <g and aren’t crazy about camping, there also appears to be several major hotels/motels in the Toad Suck (Conway, Arkansas) area.

Response:

That’s it. It’s a sign. We have to go now. Be sure to tell your family and friends its a "pilgrimage" though. Make it sound very mysterious and maybe even deeply religious. That way they won’t just think you’re a fruit loop. Sherry

Toad Suck is a religious experience, honest.  I was struck by the mystery, beauty, and total surrealism of the place.  It is a place made to order for an RPCA gathering.  We must all gather in Toad Suck Arkansas next July or our cats will never forgive us. Pam S. who’s already told the relatives that she will be unavailable next year due to a prior commitment.  Rob says that I should be commited.

Response:

Hi group, We are back from Dallas, and I see that you’ve been your usual chatty selves. Purrs, hugs, skritches and prayers for all in need. While in Dallas, I met a woman from Arkansas. I asked her if she knew anything about Toad Suck and she said she lived in Conway, home of the Toad Suck Festival. She’s also a cat slave and her owners are rescues. I told her about RPCA and possible plans for a gathering next year, and she said the campground there was named Toad Suck. I gave her the RPCA newsgroup name and she said she might drop in here. Annie

Response:

Hi group, We are back from Dallas, and I see that you’ve been your usual chatty selves. Purrs, hugs, skritches and prayers for all in need. While in Dallas, I met a woman from Arkansas. I asked her if she knew anything about Toad Suck and she said she lived in Conway, home of the Toad Suck Festival. She’s also a cat slave and her owners are rescues. I told her about RPCA and possible plans for a gathering next year, and she said the campground there was named Toad Suck. I gave her the RPCA newsgroup name and she said she might drop in here. Annie

Toad Suck!  Toad Suck! <bowing in worship ;) Theresa Stinky Pictures: http://community.webshots.com/scripts/editPhotos.fcgi?action=viewall&… My Blog: http://www.humanitas.blogspot.com alt.tv.frasier FAQ: http://www.im-listening.net/FAQ/

Response:

I told her about RPCA and possible plans for a gathering next year, and she said the campground there was named Toad Suck. I gave her the RPCA newsgroup name and she said she might drop in here. Annie Toad Suck!  Toad Suck! <bowing in worship ;) Theresa

That’s it. It’s a sign. We have to go now. Be sure to tell your family and friends its a "pilgrimage" though. Make it sound very mysterious and maybe even deeply religious. That way they won’t just think you’re a fruit loop. Sherry

Response:

 Toad Suck!  Toad Suck! <bowing in worship ;)   That’s it. It’s a sign. We have to go now. Be sure to tell your family   and friends its a "pilgrimage" though. Make it sound very mysterious and   maybe even deeply religious. That way they won’t just think you’re a   fruit loop. I don’t think anything with the word "suck" in it could be made to sound religious. (Though I guess it depends on the religion…) Joyce

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi group, We are back from Dallas, and I see that you’ve been your usual chatty selves. Purrs, hugs, skritches and prayers for all in need. While in Dallas, I met a woman from Arkansas. I asked her if she knew anything about Toad Suck and she said she lived in Conway, home of the Toad Suck Festival. She’s also a cat slave and her owners are rescues. I told her about RPCA and possible plans for a gathering next year, and she said the campground there was named Toad Suck. I gave her the RPCA newsgroup name and she said she might drop in here. Annie

Thank you.  You just restored my sanity, or some shred of it.  Every time I would see "Toad Suck" on the group it would jangle a buried memory.  One of those "I’m supposed to know something about that but for the life of me don’t have a clue what" My grandsons’ other grandparents live in Conway.  There was a summer maybe 10 years ago the kids were wearing Toad Suck festival t-shirts most of the summer. Thanks for the info. Jo

Response:

Question:

I cannot find the GCWR for my van- I CAN find the GVWR (5500 pounds) which is a function of the 4500 pound trailer and 13-15% of the trailer for the tongue weight, but to accurately determine the trailer weight, I would like to find the GCWR. According to a few sites that I pinged, the 3.8L FWD can tow 2000 pounds, OR 3800 with the towing pkg (larger alternator and CCA battery, full spare, load levelling suspension, AND engine cooling which is a larger rad with a tranny oil cooler). The same site says that the 3.8L AWD can tow 3800, no package implied.  I crawled under the van tonite, and I see a send and a return line from the tranny to the rad already!  Is the trailer pkg part of the AWD package to begin with??  I have to order the build sheet from the dealer to really see. Back to the Q- there are conflicting reports as to what the GCWR is for the AWD with 3.8L- is it 9300?  9000?  8800?  8300? Once I know that, when I subtract 4500 for the van, I am left with my trailer + luggage/load. One site: http://www.trailmanor.com/Camping-Towing/TOW%20RATINGS.pdf S

Response:

Your van already weighs 4500lb (or at least very close to it). Larry

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I cannot find the GCWR for my van- I CAN find the GVWR (5500 pounds) which is a function of the 4500 pound trailer and 13-15% of the trailer for the tongue weight, but to accurately determine the trailer weight, I would like to find the GCWR. According to a few sites that I pinged, the 3.8L FWD can tow 2000 pounds, OR 3800 with the towing pkg (larger alternator and CCA battery, full spare, load levelling suspension, AND engine cooling which is a larger rad with a tranny oil cooler). The same site says that the 3.8L AWD can tow 3800, no package implied.  I crawled under the van tonite, and I see a send and a return line from the tranny to the rad already!  Is the trailer pkg part of the AWD package to begin with??  I have to order the build sheet from the dealer to really see. Back to the Q- there are conflicting reports as to what the GCWR is for the AWD with 3.8L- is it 9300?  9000?  8800?  8300? Once I know that, when I subtract 4500 for the van, I am left with my trailer + luggage/load. One site: http://www.trailmanor.com/Camping-Towing/TOW%20RATINGS.pdf S

Response:

Your van already weighs 4500lb (or at least very close to it). Larry

Yes.  Hence, if the GCWR is 8800, I subtract the 4500 PLUS my cargo and the remainder is the loaded trailer weight (limit) that I can tow. Sean

Response:

I cannot find the GCWR for my van- I CAN find the GVWR (5500 pounds) which is a function of the 4500 pound trailer and 13-15% of the trailer for the tongue weight, but to accurately determine the trailer weight, I would like to find the GCWR. According to a few sites that I pinged, the 3.8L FWD can tow 2000 pounds, OR 3800 with the towing pkg (larger alternator and CCA battery, full spare, load levelling suspension, AND engine cooling which is a larger rad with a tranny oil cooler). The same site says that the 3.8L AWD can tow 3800, no package implied.  I crawled under the van tonite, and I see a send and a return line from the tranny to the rad already!  Is the trailer pkg part of the AWD package to begin with??  I have to order the build sheet from the dealer to really see. Back to the Q- there are conflicting reports as to what the GCWR is for the AWD with 3.8L- is it 9300?  9000?  8800?  8300? Once I know that, when I subtract 4500 for the van, I am left with my trailer + luggage/load. One site: http://www.trailmanor.com/Camping-Towing/TOW%20RATINGS.pdf S

Response:

Your van already weighs 4500lb (or at least very close to it). Larry

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I cannot find the GCWR for my van- I CAN find the GVWR (5500 pounds) which is a function of the 4500 pound trailer and 13-15% of the trailer for the tongue weight, but to accurately determine the trailer weight, I would like to find the GCWR. According to a few sites that I pinged, the 3.8L FWD can tow 2000 pounds, OR 3800 with the towing pkg (larger alternator and CCA battery, full spare, load levelling suspension, AND engine cooling which is a larger rad with a tranny oil cooler). The same site says that the 3.8L AWD can tow 3800, no package implied.  I crawled under the van tonite, and I see a send and a return line from the tranny to the rad already!  Is the trailer pkg part of the AWD package to begin with??  I have to order the build sheet from the dealer to really see. Back to the Q- there are conflicting reports as to what the GCWR is for the AWD with 3.8L- is it 9300?  9000?  8800?  8300? Once I know that, when I subtract 4500 for the van, I am left with my trailer + luggage/load. One site: http://www.trailmanor.com/Camping-Towing/TOW%20RATINGS.pdf S

Response:

Your van already weighs 4500lb (or at least very close to it). Larry

Yes.  Hence, if the GCWR is 8800, I subtract the 4500 PLUS my cargo and the remainder is the loaded trailer weight (limit) that I can tow. Sean

Response:

Question:

… How do you plan on doing that?  Syncing a generator and inverter will be challenging.

Not at all…when you’re making DC…(:-)!  I don’t plan on making 60Hz AC. Although my Xantrex inverter could sync to it, I don’t plan on using that feature. … been one of my "things".  BTW, every year we had to prove the capacity of each bank via a discharge test.  TVA built a discharge tester, a huge version of mine, for this purpose.  Trailer mounted.  Water cooled load resistors. Computerized via a PDP-11 and a rack full of peripherals.  It connected to the bank via paralleled 600 mcm cables.  Just hook that sucker up, boot the computer, connect a 2" fire hose to the water inlet and push the button

:-) And here I thought that a test stand I built to functionally stress our 20 amp power supplies was "monster"… Dusty —

Response:

I presume you are referring to my comment about replacing my 12V batteries after 5 years. I did not say they LASTED for 5 years, I said I replaced them and by all accounts they might have lasted for 10 years especially using the smart charger I use. Whatever the testing that was done by this group in controlled environments these are the facts. My son-in-law and his family are snowmobile enthusiasts. They use their motorhome to tow their snowmobiles to wintery climes.Until he replaced his 12V deep cycle Batteries with 6V golf cart batteries they had to cut their weekends short because the ran out of power. After installing 6V golf cart batteries they remained comfortable regardless of outside temps the entire weekend. It seems the 6V golf cart batteries are less affected by cold temps. Stu

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It all depends on exactly what battery you choose. If you use 2 T-105 capacity. Now as far as how long they will last, the edge goes to the 6V batteries as they have thicker plates and should last longer. But you can get 12 volt batteries that also have thicker plates for longer service. It also depends on how much storage space you have. In the above example, it would take 4 T-105’s to equal the capacity of 2 class 29 12 volt batteries. Now regarding the subject of battery life, there are some battery makers, that rate their batteries by the number of discharges and charges the battery will take. The reason the T-105’s are recommended are they can be "deep cycled" 700- 800 times. The so called 12 V Marine deep cycle batteries are rated 300 to 400 cycles. They have sponge lead plates that are cheaper to manufacture and are not true Deep Cycle batteries. You can get true deep cycle 12 volt batteries just as you can 6 Volt batteries. Trojan Battery makes both 6 and 12 Volt Deep Cycle batteries. The use of time in describing battery life is not a effective measurement as far as I am concerned. If a person said "My batteries lasted 5 years", but was connected to shore power 90% of the time, so what? If another person says "my batteries lasted only 4 years", but was dry camping 90% of the time and the batteries were deep cycled 700 times, this to me is a more objective measurement. Also how your batteries are maintained is a factor on their life. I have an older Magnetek converter in my MH. It is a single stage charger that puts out 4 amps and if left on for long periods, will boil off the water and ruin the battery. A three stage charger will give longer battery life. I never leave my MH on shore power when parked in the driveway, but use BatteryMinder instead. This device keeps my 3 Trojan 12 V SCS200 house batteries charged, with minimum water loss.  In  your case I would agree with John that 2 12V batteries would give you more capacity then 2 6V t-105’s. If you use  good quality batteries they should give you near the life of 6 Volt batteries, with more capacity. Frank Howell Yep, yet again, from another rookie…..I have looked in Google and find so many conflicting things, so I am getting confused.  lol My current system of 2 12v. batteries are about shot, requiring lots of charging to just keep up with the normal drain, needing a good charge every other day or so, with nothing on.  I have so far had very little off the grid camping, so need for full reliance on the 12v system hasn’t really been there.  I am using the Vector 40 amp charger that is suddenly so popular here (lol).  I am thinking of changing out the current almost wornout batteries and wonder what is the best/cheapest way to go.  Price alone says a couple of 6 vt. batteries from Sam’s will be cheaper, but what am I giving up in terms of storage and power? I am just guessing, but my current useage patterns says I will need battery power for running the Fantastic Fan a few hours during the day, when away from the ac supply.  Might use the tv/dvd player a couple hours ago, while sitting somewhere and not running the engine or connected to ac power.  Maybe 3 or 4 water pump runs for the toilet and sink.  There may be a change in use later when we attempt to do some parking lot camping, for a day or 2 at a time, but will be driving during the day, to recharge any battery system back up.  I don’t have the laptop, nav. systems, Direct or Dish network, Sat. radio and such. What do I gain in using a double 12v system versus a double 6 v. system in terms of storage capacity of amp hours, speed of recharging, and other things I may be forgetting about? — HT "Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming — "WOW–What a Ride"!   unknown

Response:

From what you described as your usage patterns, not much.  Either system will work.  If you decide to install a decent sized inverter or other heavy loads, the parallel 12 volt batteries will serve you better.  

Ok, good info.  I have a 1000 watt inverter, haven’t had the need to connect it up to now, but it’s here for future need.. I did not at all like the 2 6 volts in series.  The voltage variation made the light flicker considerably.  The high internal impedance limited how fast I could charge the batteries.  It caused the inverter to trip from undervoltage before the batteries were discharged.  Went back to two group 29s and have been happy ever after. :-) John

Well, I just remembered that the 6 volts are not sealed, right? That’s a biggie for me, as the batteries are only accessible by removing the second seat, drivers side and unscrewing a plate for access.  But I am considering moving the whole shebang to the rear, and adding 2 more, if I ever need to, to get them accessible to the outside compartment. I have quite a bit of unused room back behind the rear wheel (Roadtrek) that is basically wasted at present.  The addition of an outside luggage door in the side would open all this area up to easy access.   So 2 or 4 6 volts vs 12 volts, still a dilemma.  lol — HT "Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming — "WOW–What a Ride"!   unknown

Response:

It all depends on exactly what battery you choose. If you use 2 T-105 you

This one statement he is incorrect HT.  Depending on what brand of 6 volt battery you purchase, you will have between 200 and 220 AH @ 20 hours capacity.  Not in the 100 range.

Response:

Thanks for catching the error. Frank Howell

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It all depends on exactly what battery you choose. If you use 2 T-105 Check again. — Al Balmer Balmer Consulting

Response:

Frank Howell

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It all depends on exactly what battery you choose. If you use 2 T-105 you hours capacity. The Trojan T-105 battery is a 225 Amp Hour battery.  So with two in series you have 225 AH at 12 volts.  The Golf Cart Battery from SAMS is about the same size –  Maybe 210 AH.

Response:

It all depends on exactly what battery you choose. If you use 2 T-105

<snip some great info shore power when parked in the driveway, but use BatteryMinder instead. This device keeps my 3 Trojan 12 V SCS200 house batteries charged, with minimum water loss.  In  your case I would agree with John that 2 12V batteries would give you more capacity then 2 6V t-105’s. If you use  good quality batteries they should give you near the life of 6 Volt batteries, with more capacity. Frank Howell

I keep it connected to shore power any time it is home.  The Vector multicharger does a great job as a 3 stage charger, with desulfication, if needed, and saved me spending big bucks for a replacement for the Progressive Dynamics in-house charging/power system.   — HT "Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming — "WOW–What a Ride"!   unknown

Response:

It all depends on exactly what battery you choose. If you use 2 T-105 capacity.

The Trojan T-105 battery is a 225 Amp Hour battery.  So with two in series you have 225 AH at 12 volts.  The Golf Cart Battery from SAMS is about the same size –  Maybe 210 AH.

Response:

Ya gotta tell me more about this "CBC".  Got any details?

This is an engine-driven charger.  Actually I’ve designed and built several different models to serve different needs.  I’m finishing up on a tiny handheld unit right now that will be used with my electric scooters.  It uses a Honda weed whacker motor and a small PM servo motor re-timed to be a generator.  Weighs about 12 pounds and can do 50 amps. The innovation is the control system.  It works quite similarly to this new Vector charger.  It does the 3 stage charge using both PWM and throttle control to vary the output.  When the charge is complete it turns itself off. Here are some photos of a very early prototype of the 150 amp CBC. http://bellsouthpwp.net/j/o/johngd/files/rv/cordless_battery_charger/ I was still using the commercially available analog controller at that point. I now use my own digital controller.  My current work involves making the thing fully automatic, capable of monitoring the battery it is connected to and starting itself when needed.  Starting is via driving the alternator as a stepper motor.  Not a very efficient one, I’m afraid.  As soon as I find a viable PM generator capable of that amperage I’ll get rid of the car alternator which will make self-starting much easier. I’m constantly debating with myself whether to stay with the CBC concept or to go to either a high power engine driven alternator or a high current smart charger driven from the MH’s generator.  I have two MH’s to deal with (mine and my mom’s).  As long as that is the case, 1 CBC wins out on cost vs 2 separate alternative systems. BTW, I just checked on the progress of the discharge test on the golf cart batteries.  Currently at 94 amp-hours discharged with a terminal voltage of 11.66 volts.  IOW, less than half discharged and yet the terminal voltage is below 12 with just an 8 amp load. … So Dusty, warping back around to your original question, for your described loads which are small, you’ll get good service out of either setup.  But if you ever decide that you need to really thump your batteries then the parallel 12 volt setup will give better results.  Another advantage of paralleled 12 My typical loads are small.  But it’s the non-typical usage that I want to plan for.  My inverter will run everything, and my generator will make enough to even run the A/C.  What it won’t do is start the A/C.  

How do you plan on doing that?  Syncing a generator and inverter will be challenging. I intend to rely on the battery to give me that starting boost…and run the mikey, a few lights, the PC, and the satellite dish…(:-)! Thanks for the good description and detailed overview, John…

You’re welcome.  One of my first assignments out of college was to be put in charge of the startup testing and then maintenance of the standby batteries in a nuclear plant.  4 separate banks.  250 volts each. 100k amp hours each – can’t remember the exact amount anymore.  Ever since, battery technology has been one of my "things".  BTW, every year we had to prove the capacity of each bank via a discharge test.  TVA built a discharge tester, a huge version of mine, for this purpose.  Trailer mounted.  Water cooled load resistors. Computerized via a PDP-11 and a rack full of peripherals.  It connected to the bank via paralleled 600 mcm cables.  Just hook that sucker up, boot the computer, connect a 2" fire hose to the water inlet and push the button :-) John — John De Armond http://bellsouthpwp.net/j/o/johngd/ Cleveland, Occupied TN

Response:

My typical loads are small.  But it’s the non-typical usage that I want to plan for.  My inverter will run everything, and my generator will make enough to even run the A/C.  What it won’t do is start the A/C.  I intend to rely on the battery to give me that starting boost…and run the mikey, a few lights, the PC, and the satellite dish…(:-)! Thanks for the good description and detailed overview, John…

Forgot to add in my previous post… Here is one of the best short documents on battery maintenance that I’ve found on the net: http://www.usbr.gov/power/data/fist/fist3_6/3-6.pdf This is the Bureau of Reclamations’s battery maintenance manual.  It addresses everything from large station batteries to automotive starting batteries.  The procedures are quite similar to what we use(d) at TVA. John — John De Armond http://bellsouthpwp.net/j/o/johngd/ Cleveland, Occupied TN

Response:

It all depends on exactly what battery you choose. If you use 2 T-105

Check again. — Al Balmer Balmer Consulting

Response:

My typical loads are small.  But it’s the non-typical usage that I want to plan for.  My inverter will run everything, and my generator will make enough to even run the A/C.  What it won’t do is start the A/C.  I intend to rely on the battery to give me that starting boost…and run the mikey, a few lights, the PC, and the satellite dish…(:-)! Thanks for the good description and detailed overview, John…

Following up on this yet again… I was thinking about this thread while reading some new stuff on the amplepower web site.  On this page: http://www.amplepower.com/pwrnews/micro2/index.html regarding the testing of a microwave oven operation on an inverter, he says the following: "Without knowing why the microwave oven performs better on a higher DC input, immediate and useful conclusions follows. If you have an inverter, use it when the batteries are fully charged. It also helps to have batteries that hold up their voltage under heavy loads. We touched on this subject in Living on 12 Volts with Ample Power without getting into the whys and wherefores. Liquid electrolyte deep cycle batteries with thick plates sag quite severely with heavy loads. In the case of our experiment, the inverter drew about 100 Amps. A fully charged liquid 8D battery fell almost immediately below 11.5 Volts. In the graph, the measurements below 11.59 Volts were taken with a liquid 8D." The 8D battery is very large but as he notes, it performs quite similarly to golf cart batteries.  That is because the design architecture is quite similar. This article, along with the first one, http://www.amplepower.com/pwrnews/micro1/index.html are of direct interest to you and me.  I experience the same thing he did, only worse, because my inverter does not regulate the output voltage very well.  It varies with the DC input voltage. One of my "round tuit" projects is to take modify my microwave to make it operate more satisfactorily on the inverter to which it is permanently attached.  This will involve unwinding a few turns from the transformer primary, attaching a tap and rewinding it.  The tap will be placed to generate full high voltage on the inverter power.  Initially I’ll install a toggle switch to switch between shore and inverter power.  I expect to eventually make up a little control board that will do the switching automatically. One alternative to modification may be the new line of inverter ovens by Panasonic.  In these ovens, switchmode power supply technology is used to generate the necessary high voltage without the large 60 hz transformer.  This architecture appears to be relatively immune to line voltage fluctuations. And it allows continuous varying of the oven power instead of the on/of technique used by conventional ovens.  I have a couple of these in my restaurant and really like them.   Panasonic doesn’t yet make a small inverter microwave that would fit in my rig so I haven’t been motivated to do any testing yet.  perhaps I need to.  It might even be feasible to rip the guts out of a Panasonic and put them in the physically small oven I use in my rig.  Hmm. John — John De Armond http://bellsouthpwp.net/j/o/johngd/ Cleveland, Occupied TN

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yep, yet again, from another rookie…..I have looked in Google and find so many conflicting things, so I am getting confused.  lol My current system of 2 12v. batteries are about shot, requiring lots of charging to just keep up with the normal drain, needing a good charge every other day or so, with nothing on.  I have so far had very little off the grid camping, so need for full reliance on the 12v system hasn’t really been there.  I am using the Vector 40 amp charger that is suddenly so popular here (lol).  I am thinking of changing out the current almost wornout batteries and wonder what is the best/cheapest way to go.  Price alone says a couple of 6 vt. batteries from Sam’s will be cheaper, but what am I giving up in terms of storage and power? I am just guessing, but my current useage patterns says I will need battery power for running the Fantastic Fan a few hours during the day, when away from the ac supply.  Might use the tv/dvd player a couple hours ago, while sitting somewhere and not running the engine or connected to ac power.  Maybe 3 or 4 water pump runs for the toilet and sink.  There may be a change in use later when we attempt to do some parking lot camping, for a day or 2 at a time, but will be driving during the day, to recharge any battery system back up.  I don’t have the laptop, nav. systems, Direct or Dish network, Sat. radio and such. What do I gain in using a double 12v system versus a double 6 v. system in terms of storage capacity of amp hours, speed of recharging, and other things I may be forgetting about? This is discussed on a couple web sites: http://www.batteryfaq.org Section 7.3.3 http://www.amplepower.com/primer/ The capacity of two golf carts is about the same as two Deep Discharge.  Both are in the 100 amp hour per battery range.  You can charge two 12 volt batteries faster than the golf cart. It is critical that the golf cart batteries be almost identical.  Buy them that have the same date and lot number. 12 volt is not as critical.  The stronger battery supplies the most current.  The one that is discharged the most takes most of the charge current.

This is the link I wanted that discussed advantages of parallel and series configureations. http://www.amplepower.com/pwrnews/parallel/index.html

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… Once you drag out the instruments and do some actual measurements you can reject the theology and base your beliefs at least a little bit on facts.

Hey!  That’s exactly my style…so I’m all for that… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was just about to buy 4-6’s and parallel two sets of 6’s in series.  They "should" act like a pair of parallel 12’s.  I thought I’d run the numbers…but didn’t come up with what you described.  Any embellishments would be most appreciated… A DC model of a battery is a perfect voltage source (no voltage variation with current) in series with a resistance.  The resistance can be thought of as the battery’s deviation from perfection.  The voltage drop across this resistance linearly follows the current being withdrawn and causes the terminal voltage to drop correspondingly.  Obviously the internal impedance should be as low as possible.

Okay, I’m with ya so far… … There really isn’t much of a way to "run the numbers" unless you have available something like the Spice model of that particular battery.  The

only I’ve had Spice models of various devices in the past, but not one of batteries at the moment. way to know the internal resistance is to measure it.  There are expensive meters that make the measurement directly but the old fashioned manual delta method works just as well.

Okay.  BTDT.  I know how to do that–and have.  I used the vendors info for my calcs.  Probably should’a done it myself… … As an example consider the Stowaway golf cart batteries I have on my bench … worse than when they were new.  This big initial drop causes the inverter to trip from undervoltage far before the batteries are discharged.  It also

Ah, ha!  Got it!  That’s also what I was seeing with the puny grp. 27 batt. that came w/the trailer.  Now that the PV’s are wired in, I want to upgrade my storage. … setpoint.  Instead of being able to put around 70% of the full charge into the battery at the 150 amp bulk charge rate as with my two Group 29s, I end up putting all but a little bit of the charge in at the much lower absorption rate which takes several hours.  This defeats the very purpose of the

smart … during my normal dry camping routine.  The designers of the Xantrex, Onan and other brands of high current intelligent chargers have similar goals, all thwarted by the high impedance.

Okay.  I understand what you’re saying.  I’d not had a chance to ck impedance on a 6′er, but I’ll take your word for it…as it does make some sense.  I guess I thought the greater plate area of the 6 would foster a higher iMax. … Let me say here, before the question is asked, that I do not care what the effects of fast charging or deep discharging might be on overall battery life. Batteries are dirt cheap.  I’m perfectly happy getting 2-3 years out of

‘em. Yeah.  I agree there.  While I’m happy to keep an eye on it, I’d not succumbed to the notion that cost was the only thing.  After thinking about what you’ve said, I’m gonna hafta rethink my installation.  I’ve got a line on a pair of new Trojan L16’s…they’re starting to look better all the time… … life, to satisfy my needs then so be it.  I don’t want to bother other campers any more than I have to so I designed the CBC to restore a day’s typical use in under an hour.  I can run the CBS at mid-day when most people are doing other things.

Ya gotta tell me more about this "CBC".  Got any details? … So Dusty, warping back around to your original question, for your described loads which are small, you’ll get good service out of either setup.  But if you ever decide that you need to really thump your batteries then the parallel 12 volt setup will give better results.  Another advantage of paralleled

12 My typical loads are small.  But it’s the non-typical usage that I want to plan for.  My inverter will run everything, and my generator will make enough to even run the A/C.  What it won’t do is start the A/C.  I intend to rely on the battery to give me that starting boost…and run the mikey, a few lights, the PC, and the satellite dish…(:-)! Thanks for the good description and detailed overview, John… Dusty San Jose, Ca. —

Response:

It all depends on exactly what battery you choose. If you use 2 T-105 capacity. Now as far as how long they will last, the edge goes to the 6V batteries as they have thicker plates and should last longer. But you can get 12 volt batteries that also have thicker plates for longer service. It also depends on how much storage space you have. In the above example, it would take 4 T-105’s to equal the capacity of 2 class 29 12 volt batteries. Now regarding the subject of battery life, there are some battery makers, that rate their batteries by the number of discharges and charges the battery will take. The reason the T-105’s are recommended are they can be "deep cycled" 700- 800 times. The so called 12 V Marine deep cycle batteries are rated 300 to 400 cycles. They have sponge lead plates that are cheaper to manufacture and are not true Deep Cycle batteries. You can get true deep cycle 12 volt batteries just as you can 6 Volt batteries. Trojan Battery makes both 6 and 12 Volt Deep Cycle batteries. The use of time in describing battery life is not a effective measurement as far as I am concerned. If a person said "My batteries lasted 5 years", but was connected to shore power 90% of the time, so what? If another person says "my batteries lasted only 4 years", but was dry camping 90% of the time and the batteries were deep cycled 700 times, this to me is a more objective measurement. Also how your batteries are maintained is a factor on their life. I have an older Magnetek converter in my MH. It is a single stage charger that puts out 4 amps and if left on for long periods, will boil off the water and ruin the battery. A three stage charger will give longer battery life. I never leave my MH on shore power when parked in the driveway, but use BatteryMinder instead. This device keeps my 3 Trojan 12 V SCS200 house batteries charged, with minimum water loss.  In  your case I would agree with John that 2 12V batteries would give you more capacity then 2 6V t-105’s. If you use  good quality batteries they should give you near the life of 6 Volt batteries, with more capacity. Frank Howell

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yep, yet again, from another rookie…..I have looked in Google and find so many conflicting things, so I am getting confused.  lol My current system of 2 12v. batteries are about shot, requiring lots of charging to just keep up with the normal drain, needing a good charge every other day or so, with nothing on.  I have so far had very little off the grid camping, so need for full reliance on the 12v system hasn’t really been there.  I am using the Vector 40 amp charger that is suddenly so popular here (lol).  I am thinking of changing out the current almost wornout batteries and wonder what is the best/cheapest way to go.  Price alone says a couple of 6 vt. batteries from Sam’s will be cheaper, but what am I giving up in terms of storage and power? I am just guessing, but my current useage patterns says I will need battery power for running the Fantastic Fan a few hours during the day, when away from the ac supply.  Might use the tv/dvd player a couple hours ago, while sitting somewhere and not running the engine or connected to ac power.  Maybe 3 or 4 water pump runs for the toilet and sink.  There may be a change in use later when we attempt to do some parking lot camping, for a day or 2 at a time, but will be driving during the day, to recharge any battery system back up.  I don’t have the laptop, nav. systems, Direct or Dish network, Sat. radio and such. What do I gain in using a double 12v system versus a double 6 v. system in terms of storage capacity of amp hours, speed of recharging, and other things I may be forgetting about? — HT "Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming — "WOW–What a Ride"!   unknown

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – … work.  If you decide to install a decent sized inverter or other heavy loads, the parallel 12 volt batteries will serve you better.  The impedance of two batteries in parallel is much lower than 2 6 volts in series for about the same amp-hour capacity.  That means the voltage varies less as loads are changed and during charging.  Less light dimming and such. Hey John, can you enlighten me a bit more here?  This seems to fly in the face of what I *understood* to be the case. You might try looking this subject up in the Google archives. I think you’ll find that John is pretty much alone in his opinion of six volt batteries. Many of the rest of us are happily enjoying the increased capacity and have not seen the problems he describes.

Close your eyes, raise your arms over your head and repeat after me… "I believe!!!"  "And don’t try to confuse me with facts either." Once you drag out the instruments and do some actual measurements you can reject the theology and base your beliefs at least a little bit on facts. I was just about to buy 4-6’s and parallel two sets of 6’s in series.  They "should" act like a pair of parallel 12’s.  I thought I’d run the numbers…but didn’t come up with what you described.  Any embellishments would be most appreciated…

A DC model of a battery is a perfect voltage source (no voltage variation with current) in series with a resistance.  The resistance can be thought of as the battery’s deviation from perfection.  The voltage drop across this resistance linearly follows the current being withdrawn and causes the terminal voltage to drop correspondingly.  Obviously the internal impedance should be as low as possible. The impedance is affected by many design elements.  Plate area, grid thickness, interconnect cross-section, state of charge, degree of sulfation, to name a few.  There is no correlation at all between capacity in amp-hours and internal impedance.  A battery constructed of many fine grids attached to the interconnectors with small gauge connections can have a very large amp-hour capacity with a high impedance.  The full amount of energy can be withdrawn but only slowly.  OTOH, the spiral wrapped AGM type battery with only two continuous plates bonded along the whole length and with very heavy cell interconnects can have a very low impedance AND a low capacity.  A 10 amp-hour Hawker (formerly Gates) spiral wrapped cell can supply well over 1000 amps for a few seconds. Some battery manufacturers quote an internal impedance value but even that isn’t accurate because the value changes with state of charge and with the age of the battery.  Indeed, some quite expensive "state of charge" meters use this change in impedance to model the state of charge of the battery. There really isn’t much of a way to "run the numbers" unless you have available something like the Spice model of that particular battery.  The only way to know the internal resistance is to measure it.  There are expensive meters that make the measurement directly but the old fashioned manual delta method works just as well. This involves measuring the battery terminal voltage at two different load points and then computing the impedance with the equation deltaV/deltaA = Zi. I use two well characterized resistors, one that draws about 10 amps and one that draws about 50 amps, along with a current shunt.  I use two DVMs, one to measure the battery voltage and one to measure the shunt voltage.  That gives me the volts and amps at each load point.  Simple number crunching gives the internal impedance. Using this setup I find that two Stowaway Group 29 12 volt, approx 110 amp-hour batteries in parallel exhibit a MUCH lower internal impedance than two Stowaway 220 amp-hour golf cart batteries in series. As an example consider the Stowaway golf cart batteries I have on my bench right now, being used to test this new Vector smart charger.  In their current condition, about 4 years old, about 1 year of which was spent sitting on the floor of my shop, when a 50 amp load is applied, the terminal voltage drops from about 12.4 volts to 11.5, then drops slowly as the set discharges.  My log is in my RV across town but I seem to recall that this isn’t a whole lot worse than when they were new.  This big initial drop causes the inverter to trip from undervoltage far before the batteries are discharged.  It also causes the lights in the RV to dim under load and flare during charging. When I apply about a similar load to my two Group 29s by turning on the microwave oven which is powered from an inverter (about 65 amps), the voltage drops from about 12.5 to about 12.3 and drops only very slowly with discharge. Similarly, when I apply my Cordless Battery Charger (CBC) which is capable of 150 amp, to the fully discharged golf cart batteries, the terminal voltage rises within a few minutes to the 14.8 volt (at 70 deg) end-of-bulk-charge setpoint.  Instead of being able to put around 70% of the full charge into the battery at the 150 amp bulk charge rate as with my two Group 29s, I end up putting all but a little bit of the charge in at the much lower absorption rate which takes several hours.  This defeats the very purpose of the smart charger.  Parenthetically, I’ll go out on a limb and postulate that Alan has never used a charger capable of that rate and so would have no reason to be displeased. I built my CBC with the express purpose of being able to fully charge my battery bank in an hour or two.  That lets me run the CBC for less than an hour a day during my normal dry camping routine.  The designers of the Xantrex, Onan and other brands of high current intelligent chargers have similar goals, all thwarted by the high impedance. I have experimented with my line-operated MegaCharger (capable of 250 amps at up to 20 volts) on these golf cart batteries.  If I jack up the voltage sufficient to keep the bulk rate in the 100-150 amp range, the batteries charge about as fast as the Group 29s.  But the terminal voltage rises to 16 volts.  Not very nice to light bulbs and other 12 volt loads that would be present in an RV. With the two Group 29s in parallel (about 220 ah), my inverter runs the microwave just fine even when the E-meter shows the remaining amp-hours to be under 50 – in other words, practically fully discharged.  My CBC will remain in the bulk stage until about* 75-80% of the full charge has been returned. Let me say here, before the question is asked, that I do not care what the effects of fast charging or deep discharging might be on overall battery life. Batteries are dirt cheap.  I’m perfectly happy getting 2-3 years out of ‘em. I probably spend more on toilet paper over that period than I do on batteries. I want to use the battery’s capabilities to the maximum.  I don’t have room for 500 ah of batteries and I don’t stumble around under the glow of one feeble LED at night to save power.  I use my inverter to make coffee, fry french fries and run the microwave.  I have numerous 30 watt fluorescent fixtures in the rig.  I use a 12 volt electric blanket most of the time except summer.  I have white neon campsite lighting on the outside of my rig.  In other words, I flagrantly use electricity!  If it takes draining the batteries to 80% discharged, charging them at near 1C at the expense of a year or two’s life, to satisfy my needs then so be it.  I don’t want to bother other campers any more than I have to so I designed the CBC to restore a day’s typical use in under an hour.  I can run the CBS at mid-day when most people are doing other things. Someone might ask if my batteries might be oddballs.  I’ve considered that. This is the only set I’ve conducted such extensive testing on.  But I can observe that the terminal voltage of each 6 volt battery tracks the other remarkably closely.  That facts makes me comfortable in saying that I think these are typical.  If someone wanted to send me another set I’d be happy to test ‘em :-) I’m currently running a capacity test on those two golf cart batteries.  I want to see how much capacity remains before I loose the new Vector’s pulse desulfator function on them.  I use a simple homemade discharge tester to measure the capacity.  This tester discharges the battery at a fixed rate and measure the elapsed time in minutes and seconds.  Here is a photo of it. http://bellsouthpwp.net/j/o/johngd/files/rv/Battery_discharge_tester.jpg The components are listed.  The relay is an ordinary DPDT HVAC contactor out of my junk box.  It has a 24vac coil.  The power resistor to the right of the relay lets the coil live on 12 volts DC.  It is wired to latch in through the undervoltage relay when the red button is pressed.  When the undervoltage relay trips, the latch is released and the relay opens.  This keeps the system from cycling as the battery voltage recovers when the load is removed.  The relay is set for wet cells at 10.5 volts.  All this stuff is hamfest fodder that probably didn’t cost me over $20. Incandescent lamps are used as loads because they present a constant current load over a fairly wide range of voltage.  That 100 watt landing lamp draws 8.3 amps, varying less than 50 ma across the voltage range of interest. The shunt lets me measure and verify the current draw.  Normally when I’m doing serious testing there is an E-meter hooked up to this tester to record the actual amp-hours. For less stringent measurements, the current across the shunt and the elapsed time let me compute the AH consumed with enough accuracy. I normally test at C/10 which is the rate that the capacity is normally specified.  I have a variety of lamps that I

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Response:

… work.  If you decide to install a decent sized inverter or other heavy loads, the parallel 12 volt batteries will serve you better.  The impedance of two batteries in parallel is much lower than 2 6 volts in series for about the same amp-hour capacity.  That means the voltage varies less as loads are changed and during charging.  Less light dimming and such.

Hey John, can you enlighten me a bit more here?  This seems to fly in the face of what I *understood* to be the case.  I was just about to buy 4-6’s and parallel two sets of 6’s in series.  They "should" act like a pair of parallel 12’s.  I thought I’d run the numbers…but didn’t come up with what you described.  Any embellishments would be most appreciated… I did not at all like the 2 6 volts in series.  The voltage variation made the light flicker considerably.  The high internal impedance limited how fast I could charge the batteries.  It caused the inverter to trip from undervoltage before the batteries were discharged.  Went back to two group 29s and have been happy ever after. :-)

I was going to go with the 6’s, but had been considering a pair (or even 2-pair) of L16’s (adding the second pair a bit later if my usage warranted that).  The trade-off’s I was working against were, total storage and cost vs. warranted service life. Dusty — – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – John — John De Armond http://bellsouthpwp.net/j/o/johngd/ Cleveland, Occupied TN

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yep, yet again, from another rookie…..I have looked in Google and find so many conflicting things, so I am getting confused.  lol My current system of 2 12v. batteries are about shot, requiring lots of charging to just keep up with the normal drain, needing a good charge every other day or so, with nothing on.  I have so far had very little off the grid camping, so need for full reliance on the 12v system hasn’t really been there.  I am using the Vector 40 amp charger that is suddenly so popular here (lol).  I am thinking of changing out the current almost wornout batteries and wonder what is the best/cheapest way to go.  Price alone says a couple of 6 vt. batteries from Sam’s will be cheaper, but what am I giving up in terms of storage and power? I am just guessing, but my current useage patterns says I will need battery power for running the Fantastic Fan a few hours during the day, when away from the ac supply.  Might use the tv/dvd player a couple hours ago, while sitting somewhere and not running the engine or connected to ac power.  Maybe 3 or 4 water pump runs for the toilet and sink.  There may be a change in use later when we attempt to do some parking lot camping, for a day or 2 at a time, but will be driving during the day, to recharge any battery system back up.  I don’t have the laptop, nav. systems, Direct or Dish network, Sat. radio and such.   What do I gain in using a double 12v system versus a double 6 v. system in terms of storage capacity of amp hours, speed of recharging, and other things I may be forgetting about?

This is discussed on a couple web sites: http://www.batteryfaq.org Section 7.3.3 http://www.amplepower.com/primer/ The capacity of two golf carts is about the same as two Deep Discharge.   Both are in the 100 amp hour per battery range.  You can charge two 12 volt batteries faster than the golf cart. It is critical that the golf cart batteries be almost identical.  Buy them that have the same date and lot number. 12 volt is not as critical.  The stronger battery supplies the most current.  The one that is discharged the most takes most of the charge current.

Response:

… work.  If you decide to install a decent sized inverter or other heavy loads, the parallel 12 volt batteries will serve you better.  The impedance of two batteries in parallel is much lower than 2 6 volts in series for about the same amp-hour capacity.  That means the voltage varies less as loads are changed and during charging.  Less light dimming and such. Hey John, can you enlighten me a bit more here?  This seems to fly in the face of what I *understood* to be the case.

You might try looking this subject up in the Google archives. I think you’ll find that John is pretty much alone in his opinion of six volt batteries. Many of the rest of us are happily enjoying the increased capacity and have not seen the problems he describes. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was just about to buy 4-6’s and parallel two sets of 6’s in series.  They "should" act like a pair of parallel 12’s.  I thought I’d run the numbers…but didn’t come up with what you described.  Any embellishments would be most appreciated… I did not at all like the 2 6 volts in series.  The voltage variation made the light flicker considerably.  The high internal impedance limited how fast I could charge the batteries.  It caused the inverter to trip from undervoltage before the batteries were discharged.  Went back to two group 29s and have been happy ever after. :-) I was going to go with the 6’s, but had been considering a pair (or even 2-pair) of L16’s (adding the second pair a bit later if my usage warranted that).  The trade-off’s I was working against were, total storage and cost vs. warranted service life. Dusty

– Al Balmer Balmer Consulting

Response:

I recently changed from 2 – 12V to a couple of 6V golf cart batteries and bought them from Interstate batteries they also sold me the box they go in specifially for the golf cart batteries. I did however weld up a different holding bracket on the TT to accomodate the larger box. Hung it a little lower so the box hangs just a few inches below the frame. The 2 – 6V golf cart batteries gives you about 1 and 3/4 times more storage then 2 #24  12V batteries. I am not acquainted with a Vector charger. I use an Inteli-Power convertor with the charge wizard module always plugged in. I used my last 12V batteries for 5 years and replaced them only because I thought it was time and we were going on a 6 week vacation that involved some boondocking.My new setup seems to work very well.   Stu

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yep, yet again, from another rookie…..I have looked in Google and find so many conflicting things, so I am getting confused.  lol My current system of 2 12v. batteries are about shot, requiring lots of charging to just keep up with the normal drain, needing a good charge every other day or so, with nothing on.  I have so far had very little off the grid camping, so need for full reliance on the 12v system hasn’t really been there.  I am using the Vector 40 amp charger that is suddenly so popular here (lol).  I am thinking of changing out the current almost wornout batteries and wonder what is the best/cheapest way to go.  Price alone says a couple of 6 vt. batteries from Sam’s will be cheaper, but what am I giving up in terms of storage and power? I am just guessing, but my current useage patterns says I will need battery power for running the Fantastic Fan a few hours during the day, when away from the ac supply.  Might use the tv/dvd player a couple hours ago, while sitting somewhere and not running the engine or connected to ac power.  Maybe 3 or 4 water pump runs for the toilet and sink.  There may be a change in use later when we attempt to do some parking lot camping, for a day or 2 at a time, but will be driving during the day, to recharge any battery system back up.  I don’t have the laptop, nav. systems, Direct or Dish network, Sat. radio and such. What do I gain in using a double 12v system versus a double 6 v. system in terms of storage capacity of amp hours, speed of recharging, and other things I may be forgetting about? — HT "Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming — "WOW–What a Ride"!   unknown

Response:

The 2 – 6V golf cart batteries gives you about 1 and 3/4 times more storage then 2 #24  12V batteries.

Sounds pretty good….. I am not acquainted with a Vector charger. I use an Inteli-Power convertor with the charge wizard module always plugged in.

Well, I got it as a replacement, sort of, for my Progressive Dynamics 30 amp charger, that has gone bellyup, even with a factory repaired charing board in it.  This thing will fast charge at a tremendous rate, much faster the onboard one.   . — HT "Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming — "WOW–What a Ride"!   unknown

Response:

Yep, yet again, from another rookie…..I have looked in Google and find so many conflicting things, so I am getting confused.  lol My current system of 2 12v. batteries are about shot, requiring lots of charging to just keep up with the normal drain, needing a good charge every other day or so, with nothing on.  I have so far had very little off the grid camping, so need for full reliance on the 12v system hasn’t really been there.  I am using the Vector 40 amp charger that is suddenly so popular here (lol).  I am thinking of changing out the current almost wornout batteries and wonder what is the best/cheapest way to go.  Price alone says a couple of 6 vt. batteries from Sam’s will be cheaper, but what am I giving up in terms of storage and power?

Most likely you’ll be gaining storage capacity, not losing it. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I am just guessing, but my current useage patterns says I will need battery power for running the Fantastic Fan a few hours during the day, when away from the ac supply.  Might use the tv/dvd player a couple hours ago, while sitting somewhere and not running the engine or connected to ac power.  Maybe 3 or 4 water pump runs for the toilet and sink.  There may be a change in use later when we attempt to do some parking lot camping, for a day or 2 at a time, but will be driving during the day, to recharge any battery system back up.  I don’t have the laptop, nav. systems, Direct or Dish network, Sat. radio and such.   What do I gain in using a double 12v system versus a double 6 v. system in terms of storage capacity of amp hours, speed of recharging, and other things I may be forgetting about?

– Al Balmer Balmer Consulting

Response:

What do I gain in using a double 12v system versus a double 6 v. system in terms of storage capacity of amp hours, speed of recharging, and other things I may be forgetting about?

From what you described as your usage patterns, not much.  Either system will work.  If you decide to install a decent sized inverter or other heavy loads, the parallel 12 volt batteries will serve you better.  The impedance of two batteries in parallel is much lower than 2 6 volts in series for about the same amp-hour capacity.  That means the voltage varies less as loads are changed and during charging.  Less light dimming and such. I did not at all like the 2 6 volts in series.  The voltage variation made the light flicker considerably.  The high internal impedance limited how fast I could charge the batteries.  It caused the inverter to trip from undervoltage before the batteries were discharged.  Went back to two group 29s and have been happy ever after. :-) John — John De Armond http://bellsouthpwp.net/j/o/johngd/ Cleveland, Occupied TN

Response:

Yep, yet again, from another rookie…..I have looked in Google and find so many conflicting things, so I am getting confused.  lol My current system of 2 12v. batteries are about shot, requiring lots of charging to just keep up with the normal drain, needing a good charge every other day or so, with nothing on.  I have so far had very little off the grid camping, so need for full reliance on the 12v system hasn’t really been there.  I am using the Vector 40 amp charger that is suddenly so popular here (lol).  I am thinking of changing out the current almost wornout batteries and wonder what is the best/cheapest way to go.  Price alone says a couple of 6 vt. batteries from Sam’s will be cheaper, but what am I giving up in terms of storage and power? I am just guessing, but my current useage patterns says I will need battery power for running the Fantastic Fan a few hours during the day, when away from the ac supply.  Might use the tv/dvd player a couple hours ago, while sitting somewhere and not running the engine or connected to ac power.  Maybe 3 or 4 water pump runs for the toilet and sink.  There may be a change in use later when we attempt to do some parking lot camping, for a day or 2 at a time, but will be driving during the day, to recharge any battery system back up.  I don’t have the laptop, nav. systems, Direct or Dish network, Sat. radio and such.   What do I gain in using a double 12v system versus a double 6 v. system in terms of storage capacity of amp hours, speed of recharging, and other things I may be forgetting about? — HT "Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming — "WOW–What a Ride"!   unknown

Response:

Question:

Hi, I’m planning a trip to Death Valley for the end of the month and will stay in one of the NPS parks.  The ones I’m looking at have restrooms only so we will be dry camping.  Do these campgrounds have potable water spigots??  If not, does anyone know the nearest place I can load up with water?  We will be going in from Baker, CA via Death Valley Junction.  Don’t want to lug 100 gal of water from home!! Thanks in advance for any and all advice. — Tryna 25 miles west of Palm Springs www.saltontheroad.com

Response:

Last year about this time we stayed at Stovepipe Wells.  They actually had some full hookup sites there as well as dry camping.  There were plenty of water spigots so that wasn’t a big deal. We really enjoyed that trip – one of the best we have ever had. Enjoy yourself. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, I’m planning a trip to Death Valley for the end of the month and will stay in one of the NPS parks.  The ones I’m looking at have restrooms only so we will be dry camping.  Do these campgrounds have potable water spigots??  If not, does anyone know the nearest place I can load up with water?  We will be going in from Baker, CA via Death Valley Junction.  Don’t want to lug 100 gal of water from home!! Thanks in advance for any and all advice.

Response:

I’m planning a trip to Death Valley for the end of the month and will stay in one of the NPS parks.   Tryna www.saltontheroad.com

We just visited Death Valley in Jan 10-18. Feel free to write to see web

Response:

<< Yes, all the campgrounds at Furnace Creek and Stovepipe Wells have water available. No need to haul water over the mountains. One thing though… the water there isn’t the best tasting so I usually take a container of water from home for drinking and making coffee. Q <BR<BR Water is plentiful at both locations.  It’s a little bit salty.  Safe to drink but not great.  The water is about 85 degrees so you water heater won’t have to work hard.  Furnace Creek has limited generator hours.  In March, you might miss your AC at Furnace Creek. Nice time of year.  My family spend a week during  March nearly ten times. Tom M, who loves Death Vallley

Response:

Yes, all the campgrounds at Furnace Creek and Stovepipe Wells have water available. No need to haul water over the mountains. One thing though… the water there isn’t the best tasting so I usually take a container of water from home for drinking and making coffee. Q

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, I’m planning a trip to Death Valley for the end of the month and will stay in one of the NPS parks.  The ones I’m looking at have restrooms only so we will be dry camping.  Do these campgrounds have potable water spigots?? If not, does anyone know the nearest place I can load up with water?  We will be going in from Baker, CA via Death Valley Junction.  Don’t want to lug 100 gal of water from home!! Thanks in advance for any and all advice. — Tryna 25 miles west of Palm Springs www.saltontheroad.com

Response:

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you don’t think the work of Korczak Ziolkowski is impressive, you wouldn’t think that the Pacific ocean is deep.  His life, his history, and his dedication to bringing recognition to the American Indian is something to be admired. You must have missed the story, and based your opinion on a comparison of his work to your favorite, the "It’s a Small World After All" ride at Disneyland. I was first there in about 1964 and have been back several times.  It is a huge undertaking, but I have the impression that they really don’t want to finish it as long as anyone in the family wants to work on the project.  When finished the family business will more than likely have a big revenue loss. Once one see the finished product they are less likely to return. Ron

I saw the beginnings of it in about 1965.  Haven’t been back, but understand it is taking form.  I believe that it would become a cash cow if completed, just using Mt. Rushmore as a comparison.  Room for a hotel, restaurant, usual things. But then, maybe, their non-profit status is netting them more now than they would make after taxes going the other way. Remember, it is the net that counts. Steve

Response:

To all those who have participated in this discussion, I say Thanks. I also invite you to visit: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CrazyHorseMemorial/ There are photos, articles and links to very interesting web articles on the technical and financial aspects of the carving, for those who are interested. Thanks. omar

Response:

 Thanks for crazyhorse web site info. DAN   Hi Luke: I found out about the "resources" two ways. First, was by visiting   the   memorial and talking to some of the folks working there. They also have an   interesting web page at www.crazyhorse.org/   Happy Camping   Bob in Sacramento   I checked out the web site and didn’t find any financial information–is it   there? I do see they many times mention they are a non-profit corp, so the   financial info must be available.   What would interest me is how much money goes to the families and how much is   actually spent on "construction". Also how many man hours are on collecting   fees, selling trinkets, providing "visitor services" and how much time is spent   working on the mountain.

Response:

To all those who have participated in this discussion,

This is one I’m going to let slide, but it’s still not right!!  It’s spam

Response:

IF ANYONE WHO HAS VISITED THIS MONUMENT ISN’T TAKEN ABACK AT FIRST SITE THEY MUST BE BLIND.   The monument, when completed, could easily hold the Mt. Rushmore monument   also   since it will be many times larger.   At times, it is hard to see a finished product, but if you really study the   progress they have made using the resources they have, it is an amazing   accomplishment.   How do you know what "resources" they have?

Response:

You must be about blind too if you have to use that size type – all in caps – and color no less – to post!!  I know you are new at this, but look at how everyone ease post to newsgroups and post the same way. Personally, I won’t look at but one more like that!! Tom J

IF ANYONE WHO HAS VISITED THIS MONUMENT ISN’T TAKEN ABACK AT FIRST SITE THEY MUST BE BLIND.   The monument, when completed, could easily hold the Mt. Rushmore monument   also   since it will be many times larger.   At times, it is hard to see a finished product, but if you really study the   progress they have made using the resources they have, it is an amazing   accomplishment.   How do you know what "resources" they have?

Response:

The monument, when completed, could easily hold the Mt. Rushmore monument also since it will be many times larger. At times, it is hard to see a finished product, but if you really study the progress they have made using the resources they have, it is an amazing accomplishment.

How do you know what "resources" they have?

Response:

We were there last spring while visiting Mt. Rushmore and the Black Hills.  While it is something you should see since your in the area, I was less than impressed.  Crazy Horse has no where near the impressiveness of Rushmore, but it does have 100 times the commercialism.

I love the Black Hills and go there at least once a year. I first saw Crazy Horse in ‘91. went in and checked it out–it was kinda neat. Now, I just drive on by. They have accomplished much more on the entrance and fee collection area  (I don’t know about the trinket selling area) than they have on the sculpture in the last 12 years.

Response:

Hi Luke: I found out about the "resources" two ways. First, was by visiting the memorial and talking to some of the folks working there. They also have an interesting web page at www.crazyhorse.org/ Happy Camping Bob in Sacramento

Response:

Hi Luke: I found out about the "resources" two ways. First, was by visiting the memorial and talking to some of the folks working there. They also have an interesting web page at www.crazyhorse.org/ Happy Camping Bob in Sacramento

I checked out the web site and didn’t find any financial information–is it there? I do see they many times mention they are a non-profit corp, so the financial info must be available. What would interest me is how much money goes to the families and how much is actually spent on "construction". Also how many man hours are on collecting fees, selling trinkets, providing "visitor services" and how much time is spent working on the mountain.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Luke: I found out about the "resources" two ways. First, was by visiting the memorial and talking to some of the folks working there. They also have an interesting web page at www.crazyhorse.org/ Happy Camping Bob in Sacramento I checked out the web site and didn’t find any financial information–is it there? I do see they many times mention they are a non-profit corp, so the financial info must be available. What would interest me is how much money goes to the families and how much is actually spent on "construction". Also how many man hours are on collecting fees, selling trinkets, providing "visitor services" and how much time is spent working on the mountain.

You gotta remember that it is one hell of a big project.  You can put Mt. Rushmore in the head of Crazy Horse.  It does take awhile to mark and blast out the rock without getting more than you bargained for. Ed

Response:

(LUK PORTER) writes: I checked out the web site and didn’t find any financial information–is it there? I do see they many times mention they are a non-profit corp, so the financial info must be available. What would interest me is how much money goes to the families and how much is actually spent on "construction". Also how many man hours are on collecting fees, selling trinkets, providing "visitor services" and how much time is spent working on the mountain.

They can be a "non-profit" corp. by self designation.  That means that they can be a close-held (family) corporation and pay themselves whatever salary and benefits the board (who consists of family) wishes.  They submit that they plow-back whatever profits the corp. has into the business.   Their income tax reporting is not available to the public. If they are a true IRS designated "not-for-profit" corporation then they have to file a form 990 or 990PF and that is available to the public for scrutiny. You might not see how many hours are spent working on the mountain, but you will see what the salaries and expenses are.  You will also see the amount of funds raised each year. J The Road Princess Residentially Challenged Spelling and punctuation is up to my editors. I take no responsibility

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you don’t think the work of Korczak Ziolkowski is impressive, you wouldn’t think that the Pacific ocean is deep.  His life, his history, and his dedication to bringing recognition to the American Indian is something to be admired. You must have missed the story, and based your opinion on a comparison of his work to your favorite, the "It’s a Small World After All" ride at Disneyland. I was first there in about 1964 and have been back several times.  It is a huge undertaking, but I have the impression that they really don’t want to finish it as long as anyone in the family wants to work on the project.  When finished the family business will more than likely have a big revenue loss. Once one see the finished product they are less likely to return. Ron

Response:

A couple of few interesting facts to consider when comparing the Crazy Horse Memorial to Mount Rushmore. Crazy Horse Memorial is being built without any Federal funding. This is in keeping with the agreement between the sculptor and Chief Standing Bear, spokesperson for the Lakota Tribe. Since the government had made so many promises and not kept them, they wanted to be sure the project would be done. All of the monies that are being used to produce this monument comes from visitors and non government donors. The monument, when completed, could easily hold the Mt. Rushmore monument also since it will be many times larger. At times, it is hard to see a finished product, but if you really study the progress they have made using the resources they have, it is an amazing accomplishment. I too visited both sites and they are worth viewing and enjoying. Just my 2 cents for what it’s worth. Happy camping. Bob in Sacramento.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A couple of few interesting facts to consider when comparing the Crazy Horse Memorial to Mount Rushmore. Crazy Horse Memorial is being built without any Federal funding. This is in keeping with the agreement between the sculptor and Chief Standing Bear, spokesperson for the Lakota Tribe. Since the government had made so many promises and not kept them, they wanted to be sure the project would be done. All of the monies that are being used to produce this monument comes from visitors and non government donors. The monument, when completed, could easily hold the Mt. Rushmore monument also since it will be many times larger. At times, it is hard to see a finished product, but if you really study the progress they have made using the resources they have, it is an amazing accomplishment. I too visited both sites and they are worth viewing and enjoying.

We first visited the Crazy Horse site before there was ever a visitor’s center, just a place to collect donations. We’ve been back several times over the years, and I’m one that is amazed at the progress they are making.  I remember that it took several decades to finish the carving on Stone Mountain in Georgia and it’s tiny comparatively speaking.  You have to realize that they are cutting detailed parts in 3D out of a mountain that has fractures running all through it, and one bad blast could bring it all down.  I hope they do continue the slow, sure process. Tom J

Response:

We were there last spring while visiting Mt. Rushmore and the Black Hills.  While it is something you should see since your in the area, I was less than impressed.

I was too…. less than impressed. Glad Custer State Park was nearby so the trip wasn’t a total waste. Custer State Park is a must see….. my favorite I think. Hunter http://members.aol.com/airstm2268/roadtrip2003.htm My rig: http://members.aol.com/airstm2268/excella.htm "You only get to choose what you read, not what I write."

Response:

I was too…. less than impressed. Glad Custer State Park was nearby so the trip wasn’t a total waste. Custer State Park is a must see….. my favorite I think.

My favorite is the Mammoth Site Museum near Hot Springs, SD. http://www.mammothsite.com/Tour.html Rick J.

Response:

Ken and fellow poohpoohers: If you don’t think the work of Korczak Ziolkowski is impressive, you wouldn’t think that the Pacific ocean is deep.  His life, his history, and his dedication to bringing recognition to the American Indian is something to be admired. You must have missed the story, and based your opinion on a comparison of his work to your favorite, the "It’s a Small World After All" ride at Disneyland. Steve

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We were there last spring while visiting Mt. Rushmore and the Black Hills.  While it is something you should see since your in the area, I was less than impressed.  Crazy Horse has no where near the impressiveness of Rushmore, but it does have 100 times the commercialism.  There were perhaps 4 people at the most working on the sculpture and around 100 people trying to sell me trinkets in a building that was ill suited to appreciate the view of the mountain.  Here is a family that is creating a job for themselves for several generations to come through the guise of helping the Native American.  Our waitress was very nice though. Might be worth seeing again in a hundred years or so when it is half done, or if they actually got some production going with all the money they are bilking from the public. I highly recommend a trip the the Black Hills.  We spent 2 weeks there with nary a dull moment and met plenty of nice folks.  PLenty of near by sights including The Bad Lands, Custer State Game reserve, Deadwood, several old mining towns a steam train and so much more.  One of my best trips ever. Only My Opinion, may not be yours. Ken For all those interested in the great roadside attractions of the world… For those interested in the Crazy Horse Memorial, in South Dakota, visit and join the discussion group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CrazyHorseMemorial/ A 600 foot tall mountain is being carved in-the-round into the likeness of Sioux Leader Crazy  Horse in South Dakota. It’s been in progress since 1948 and is the world’s largest sculpture. The face alone, which has been completed in 1998 is already the world’s largest sculpted portrait. They have been working on blocking out the horse’s head since then and it is half blocked out. The site, which contains one of the foremost museums of Native American history and will ultimately contain a University and Medical Center, truly captures the imagination though there is a lot of controversy surrounding it. I have posted several articles on the memorial’s creation, engineering logistics, history and opinion at this discussion group. Anything is open for discussion. Come by and read the archives or post your questions or opinions! Whether you are a fan, supporter or detractor, add your point of view to this group or just read as informative messages are periodically sent out. This is a fan-run group and is in no way associated with the Memorial. The Memorial’s website is: www.crazyhorse.org. -Lone Red Rider

Response:

We were there last spring while visiting Mt. Rushmore and the Black Hills.  While it is something you should see since your in the area, I was less than impressed.  Crazy Horse has no where near the impressiveness of Rushmore, but it does have 100 times the commercialism.  There were perhaps 4 people at the most working on the sculpture and around 100 people trying to sell me trinkets in a building that was ill suited to appreciate the view of the mountain.  Here is a family that is creating a job for themselves for several generations to come through the guise of helping the Native American.  Our waitress was very nice though. Might be worth seeing again in a hundred years or so when it is half done, or if they actually got some production going with all the money they are bilking from the public. I highly recommend a trip the the Black Hills.  We spent 2 weeks there with nary a dull moment and met plenty of nice folks.  PLenty of near by sights including The Bad Lands, Custer State Game reserve, Deadwood, several old mining towns a steam train and so much more.  One of my best trips ever. Only My Opinion, may not be yours. Ken – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – For all those interested in the great roadside attractions of the world… For those interested in the Crazy Horse Memorial, in South Dakota, visit and join the discussion group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CrazyHorseMemorial/ A 600 foot tall mountain is being carved in-the-round into the likeness of Sioux Leader Crazy  Horse in South Dakota. It’s been in progress since 1948 and is the world’s largest sculpture. The face alone, which has been completed in 1998 is already the world’s largest sculpted portrait. They have been working on blocking out the horse’s head since then and it is half blocked out. The site, which contains one of the foremost museums of Native American history and will ultimately contain a University and Medical Center, truly captures the imagination though there is a lot of controversy surrounding it. I have posted several articles on the memorial’s creation, engineering logistics, history and opinion at this discussion group. Anything is open for discussion. Come by and read the archives or post your questions or opinions! Whether you are a fan, supporter or detractor, add your point of view to this group or just read as informative messages are periodically sent out. This is a fan-run group and is in no way associated with the Memorial. The Memorial’s website is: www.crazyhorse.org. -Lone Red Rider

Response:

For all those interested in the great roadside attractions of the world… For those interested in the Crazy Horse Memorial, in South Dakota, visit and join the discussion group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CrazyHorseMemorial/ A 600 foot tall mountain is being carved in-the-round into the likeness of Sioux Leader Crazy  Horse in South Dakota. It’s been in progress since 1948 and is the world’s largest sculpture. The face alone, which has been completed in 1998 is already the world’s largest sculpted portrait. They have been working on blocking out the horse’s head since then and it is half blocked out. The site, which contains one of the foremost museums of Native American history and will ultimately contain a University and Medical Center, truly captures the imagination though there is a lot of controversy surrounding it. I have posted several articles on the memorial’s creation, engineering logistics, history and opinion at this discussion group. Anything is open for discussion. Come by and read the archives or post your questions or opinions! Whether you are a fan, supporter or detractor, add your point of view to this group or just read as informative messages are periodically sent out. This is a fan-run group and is in no way associated with the Memorial. The Memorial’s website is: www.crazyhorse.org. -Lone Red Rider

Response:

Darn!  I didn’t know about it….. I’ll catch it on the next trip near there. I always liked stuff about Wooly Mammoths in school… and Sabre Tooth tigers and such. Another favorite state park was Letchworth in upstate NY. It’s called the "Grand Canyon" of the east…..  absolutely a wonderful place to spend a day. Hunter http://members.aol.com/airstm2268/roadtrip2003.htm My rig: http://members.aol.com/airstm2268/excella.htm "You only get to choose what you read, not what I write."

what’s really neat about the hot springs site, hunter, is you can actually walk down into one of the actual excavation pits.  as you do so you’re walking back thru time.  it’s a v-e-r-y neat feeling.  if you’re like us you’ll plan to be there for at least 4-5 hours 73, rich, n9dko

Response:

When I was a kid, the childrens’ book that really influcend me was The Emperor That Wore No Clothing. I think it is fair for people to ask how sincere these people are. I appreciate people reporting back that they have been there and don’t see appreciable progress. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ken and fellow poohpoohers: If you don’t think the work of Korczak Ziolkowski is impressive, you wouldn’t think that the Pacific ocean is deep.  His life, his history, and his dedication to bringing recognition to the American Indian is something to be admired. You must have missed the story, and based your opinion on a comparison of his work to your favorite, the "It’s a Small World After All" ride at Disneyland. Steve

Response:

My favorite is the Mammoth Site Museum near Hot Springs, SD. http://www.mammothsite.com/Tour.html Rick J.

Darn!  I didn’t know about it….. I’ll catch it on the next trip near there. I always liked stuff about Wooly Mammoths in school… and Sabre Tooth tigers and such. Another favorite state park was Letchworth in upstate NY. It’s called the "Grand Canyon" of the east…..  absolutely a wonderful place to spend a day. Hunter http://members.aol.com/airstm2268/roadtrip2003.htm My rig: http://members.aol.com/airstm2268/excella.htm "You only get to choose what you read, not what I write."

Response:

If you don’t think the work of Korczak Ziolkowski is impressive, you wouldn’t think that the Pacific ocean is deep.  His life, his history, and his dedication to bringing recognition to the American Indian is something to be admired. You must have missed the story, and based your opinion on a comparison of his work to your favorite, the "It’s a Small World After All" ride at Disneyland.

I was first there in about 1964 and have been back several times.  It is a huge undertaking, but I have the impression that they really don’t want to finish it as long as anyone in the family wants to work on the project.  When finished the family business will more than likely have a big revenue loss. Once one see the finished product they are less likely to return. Ron

Response:

Well, I don’t know about that, but folks keep going to Rushmore, and it’s been finished for some time.  Same for the Confederate Memorial at Stone Mountain, GA.     Cliff – — "If You’re Gonna be DUMB; You Gotta be TOUGH !!!" NEW and IMPROVED …                      Click here — www.cj-and-m.com <– to see our Web Page

snipped lotsa "good stuff"<

 Once one see – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – the finished product they are less likely to return. Ron

Response:

Question:

Yes, other than the cost of around $2200 to $2500 installed, my unit is so old that it hasn’t the hangers or prewiring done, plus would have to lose a quarter or more of the rear under floor storage, when storage is at a premium.  Mine doesn’t even have the neat storage compartments built into the running boards and ground effects, just a small cutaway into the body, for the minimum access to water, elect. and gas.  I am hesitant to spend that much on a vehicle that old, if there is a cheaper, protable alternative.

I had to face storage issues also when I added the Microlite. I lost the use of the outside storage compartment for stuff. That decision was made easier by the fact that the compartment couldn’t be kept dry because of the way it was built – the floor had a plate over some precut openings designed specifically for installing a Microlite. Didn’t keep road spray out. With the 7500 btu ac, is there any chance a 1000i would run it? —

Don’t know. You’ll need to check the power requirements for the AC unit in the literature that you should have. As a benchmark, I *think* mine uses about 7.5 amps when running. It’s a BriskAir unit.

Response:

Well good , I was of the impression that pets were not allowed in most western

state parks and the National Parks.  That’s part of the job this winter, getting ready and reading closer to see what it is exactly.   Here’s a place to start…. http://www.dogfriendly.com/server/magazine/m0902/f0902_1.shtml Hunter http://members.aol.com/airstm2268/roadtrip2003.htm

Response:

<< The definition of energy efficiency ratio is the number of BTUs per hour to the number of watts used. Elliot, I stand corrected.  I don’t like mixed ratios but that’s the way it is. Tom M

Response:

<< Another way of thinking about it is energy efficiency ratio. This is the number of BTUs per hour divided by the number of watts input power. I think an EER of 10 is considered good. Then a 13500 BTU air conditioner should draw 1350 watt watts when running. That can’t be right. It would draw 1,350 BTU per hour.

The definition of energy efficiency ratio is the number of BTUs per hour to the number of watts used. See: http://www.bartleby.com/61/22/E0142200.html http://www.eere.energy.gov/buildings/components/hvac/energyterms.cfm Elliot Richmond Freelance Science Writer and Editor

Response:

<< Another way of thinking about it is energy efficiency ratio. This is the number of BTUs per hour divided by the number of watts input power. I think an EER of 10 is considered good. Then a 13500 BTU air conditioner should draw 1350 watt watts when running. That can’t be right. It would draw 1,350 BTU per hour. Tom M

Response:

Ok, but a 2000i would? right?  Or, another way, what’s the minimum size generator I would need to start and run a 7500 btu ac?  Or even a 5400 btu one? I found a chart converting btu’s to watts and it said btu x 0.293 = watts.  So 7500 btu x 0.293= 2195.5 watts.  That seems wrong, since people are using 2000i’s to run them, and this is above the rating of the 2000i, not even counting the initial startup surge neeed.  I have read that some were running 13,500 units with a paired set of 2000i’s but the formula calls for 3956 watts, and they were saying they ran the microwave, etc with it.    

I agree with your calculations. A BTU (British Thermal Unit) is a unit of energy (or heat). A watt is a unit of power (energy/time). So you can’t ordinarily convert one to the other. However, when air conditioner capacities are given, they really mean BTUs per hour. Therefore, for an air conditioner, 1000 BTU = 293 W. So, your calculation is correct, 7500 BTU translates to about 2200 watts. In addition, the air conditioner is not 100% efficient, so it would seem to me that a generator would need at least 4000 W to run a 7500 BTU air conditioner. Another way of thinking about it is energy efficiency ratio. This is the number of BTUs per hour divided by the number of watts input power. I think an EER of 10 is considered good. Then a 13500 BTU air conditioner should draw 1350 watt watts when running. That can’t be right. While looking, I did find a website that seems to have some useful information: http://www.rvcomfort.com/rvp/service/electrical_qu.php According to them, "Our 7,100-BTUH Mini Mach (Model 6727) can be operated using a 2,500-watt generator or larger." That would seem to be consistent with your calculations. But I’m still confused. Elliot Richmond Freelance Science Writer and Editor

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With the 7500 btu ac, is there any chance a 1000i would run it? — Thanks..

None whatsoever. Tom

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snipped With the 7500 btu ac, is there any chance a 1000i would run it? No it won’t. I have one and the starting current would trip the unit. That’s one thing to remember about the Honda EU sets, they are not tolerant of repeated overloads. The manual points this out. I have no reason to believe the other units are any different. HD in NY

Ok, but a 2000i would? right?  Or, another way, what’s the minimum size generator I would need to start and run a 7500 btu ac?  Or even a 5400 btu one? I found a chart converting btu’s to watts and it said btu x 0.293 = watts.  So 7500 btu x 0.293= 2195.5 watts.  That seems wrong, since people are using 2000i’s to run them, and this is above the rating of the 2000i, not even counting the initial startup surge neeed.  I have read that some were running 13,500 units with a paired set of 2000i’s but the formula calls for 3956 watts, and they were saying they ran the microwave, etc with it.     — Thanks.. HT

Response:

snipped With the 7500 btu ac, is there any chance a 1000i would run it?

No it won’t. I have one and the starting current would trip the unit. That’s one thing to remember about the Honda EU sets, they are not tolerant of repeated overloads. The manual points this out. I have no reason to believe the other units are any different. HD in NY

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The Roadtrek has a 7500 btu house ac that works really well.  Wonder what wattage portable generator I would have to have to run it during periods of stationary, dry camping?  Pull it out of a storage caompartment and run it when needed. I have the same size AC on my Class B and the 2800 Microlite handles it just fine, with power to spare for everything else that might run. I would think that the Honda 2000 would do the trick for you if you are looking for a portable genny. Otherwise, you’ll be happier in the long run with a permanently mounted unit so that you can use while driving and not have to mess with setting it up. Just hit the switch to turn it on.

Yes, other than the cost of around $2200 to $2500 installed, my unit is so old that it hasn’t the hangers or prewiring done, plus would have to lose a quarter or more of the rear under floor storage, when storage is at a premium.  Mine doesn’t even have the neat storage compartments built into the running boards and ground effects, just a small cutaway into the body, for the minimum access to water, elect. and gas.  I am hesitant to spend that much on a vehicle that old, if there is a cheaper, protable alternative.   With the 7500 btu ac, is there any chance a 1000i would run it? — Thanks.. HT

Response:

The Roadtrek has a 7500 btu house ac that works really well.  Wonder what wattage portable generator I would have to have to run it during periods of stationary, dry camping?  Pull it out of a storage caompartment and run it when needed.

I have the same size AC on my Class B and the 2800 Microlite handles it just fine, with power to spare for everything else that might run. I would think that the Honda 2000 would do the trick for you if you are looking for a portable genny. Otherwise, you’ll be happier in the long run with a permanently mounted unit so that you can use while driving and not have to mess with setting it up. Just hit the switch to turn it on.

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Well good , I was of the impression that pets were not allowed in most western state parks and the National Parks.  That’s part of the job this winter, getting ready and reading closer to see what it is exactly.   Here’s a place to start…. http://www.dogfriendly.com/server/magazine/m0902/f0902_1.shtml Hunter http://members.aol.com/airstm2268/roadtrip2003.htm

Hey, good site, thanks — Thanks.. HT

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It depends on the max current draw of the A/C.  Mine is about 10 years old and the specs put it well over the capacity of the generator, in the worst case.  So I bought two and built the cable to connect them. Newer A/Cs might have lower max current draws and be OK. The inverter in the generator does not have extra reserve that a typical generator has, it will most likely cut out before any harm comes to the A/C. Thanks. Jeff

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I have a diesel pickup….If I *have* to leave the dogs during hot days I leave them in the running truck with the air on, and check them ever few minutes. Fortunately the truck is so loud I can hear it running from far away.

Yep, that’s what we figure, but mine  isn’t diesel.  One way of looking at it, it has a super good cooling system and the cost of gas for idling for a few hours sure is less than the cost of a in-unit 2800 watt gennie.  Don’t know how practical it would be to do the idling for , say 6 hours, but the motor stays really cool.  I am gonna try to hookup a seperate temp. guage to do some testing on it.  I haven’t read anything, such as studies or even discussions abot the dangers of idling gasoline engines for long periods.  I know I did idle a rental 1 1/2 ton gas truck on time for  overnight cooling for several nights, with no problems, but it was a practically new truck. The Roadtrek has a 7500 btu house ac that works really well.  Wonder what wattage portable generator I would have to have to run it during periods of stationary, dry camping?  Pull it out of a storage caompartment and run it when needed.   The problem with that is generators left unattended sometimes disppear…. leaving the dog in the RV in the heat.

Yep, if I go that route, I got to figure a way to stealth it, maybe, and still have it useable.  If it can be done and keep it cool, that is.  It is gonna be hard to do on a Dodge van chassis, to make it hidden but still portable and easily accessible and storable when not being used.  May not be doable……. I was able to bring my dogs into all the National Parks, had to keep them leashed and pick up after them of course.

Well good , I was of the impression that pets were not allowed in most western state parks and the National Parks.  That’s part of the job this winter, getting ready and reading closer to see what it is exactly.   Hunter http://members.aol.com/airstm2268/roadtrip2003.htm

– Thanks.. HT

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That said, how do you keep them cool when parked during the day and touring,

hiking or whatever when you are parked and away from the vehicle in areas that pets aren’t allowed. During the day I’m hooked up at a campground.  I don’t frequnt places where pets aren’t allowed. < Some western sites parking lots in National Parks and such have no shade. That is our biggest concern for our trip west next year.  we have a small dog, and no generator builtin.  I have only come up with the idea of closing the back of the Class B off, catching all the cool I can for him up front and leaving the van engine running so the ac will cool him.  We have the fantastic fan, but it isn’t that fantastic to keep it cool in a desert, I think.   I have a diesel pickup….If I *have* to leave the dogs during hot days I leave them in the running truck with the air on, and check them ever few minutes. Fortunately the truck is so loud I can hear it running from far away. The Roadtrek has a 7500 btu house ac that works really well.  Wonder what wattage portable generator I would have to have to run it during periods of stationary, dry camping?  Pull it out of a storage caompartment and run it when needed.  

The problem with that is generators left unattended sometimes disppear…. leaving the dog in the RV in the heat. I was able to bring my dogs into all the National Parks, had to keep them leashed and pick up after them of course. Hunter http://members.aol.com/airstm2268/roadtrip2003.htm

Response:

I can handle that but I felt terrible for my poor longhaired dogs and cats.  I did have fans aimed at them so they did okay…. cats don’t seem too bothered by heat, and I took the dogs for long rides in the truck with the a/c on. That said, for the $1,000.00 the EU2000 costs I can stay in alot of campgrounds with 30 amp service. I am eyeing the EU1000, mostly because I can lift it easily (28 lbs). I almost never boondock, but if I could watch my satellite and keep the computer charged I might try it. (c: Hunter http://members.aol.com/airstm2268/roadtrip2003.htm

That said, how do you keep them cool when parked during the day and touring, hiking or whatever when you are parked and away from the vehicle in areas that pets aren’t allowed.  Some western sites parking lots in National Parks and such have no shade.  That is our biggest concern for our trip west next year.  we have a small dog, and no generator builtin.  I have only come up with the idea of closing the back of the Class B off, catching all the cool I can for him up front and leaving the van engine running so the ac will cool him.  We have the fantastic fan, but it isn’t that fantastic to keep it cool in a desert, I think.   The Roadtrek has a 7500 btu house ac that works really well.  Wonder what wattage portable generator I would have to have to run it during periods of stationary, dry camping?  Pull it out of a storage caompartment and run it when needed.   — Thanks.. HT

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Are any of you using a  EU2000i to successfully run a 13,500 Btu air conditioner, assuming that all other loads or disconnected? — Tom M (Remove *deletenospam* from my address)

Response:

Are any of you using a  EU2000i to successfully run a 13,500 Btu air conditioner, assuming that all other loads (or) < (are?)  disconnected?

Tom, This summer we used this Honda with our 15k Coleman AC. When starting up we would switch off the eco-throttle so it wouldn’t start with the low load.  It worked fine the few times we ran it. Although spending a summer in Alaska, Yukon and NWT helped reduce the amount of ac use. We now have 60 hours on the 2000i and it has been a nice little performer.  I like everything about it.  We got ours at Mayberry’s. Good numbers – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — Tom M (Remove *deletenospam* from my address)

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Are any of you using a  EU2000i to successfully run a 13,500 Btu air conditioner, assuming that all other loads or disconnected?

Everyone I know has two EU2000s hooked in parrallel to run their a/c Hunter http://members.aol.com/airstm2268/roadtrip2003.htm

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Thanks Hunter, I ran into another SKP while boondocking in Michigan late summer who just used one EU2000i, and I see above that someone else has done it with one.  I have seen the parallel also, but am interested in those that have done it with one. — Tom M (Remove *deletenospam* from my address)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "Tom Are any of you using a  EU2000i to successfully run a 13,500 Btu air conditioner, assuming that all other loads or disconnected? Everyone I know has two EU2000s hooked in parrallel to run their a/c Hunter http://members.aol.com/airstm2268/roadtrip2003.htm

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Thanks Hunter, I ran into another SKP while boondocking in Michigan late summer who just used one EU2000i, and I see above that someone else has done it with one.  I have seen the parallel also, but am interested in those that have done it with one.

Hi Tom, If it’s marginally not enough would it throw the breaker or would it harm the air conditioner’s compressor? Hunter http://members.aol.com/airstm2268/roadtrip2003.htm

Response:

Anything is possible and you raise a good point.  I personally think the EU2000i will trip out first, but who knows.  It certainly would be essential to shut down all other electrical stuff and put the fridge on gas only, and shut off the converter too.  As I boondock a fair amount, there are occasions when it would be nice to have a short stint of AC, at least to cool the rig off before going to sleep.  My solar will do most everything I need, but not AC. I remember last year in the Bad Lands NP when we nearly died and packed up after one night because of the heat.  Wow! — Tom M (Remove *deletenospam* from my address)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks Hunter, I ran into another SKP while boondocking in Michigan late summer who just used one EU2000i, and I see above that someone else has done it with one. I have seen the parallel also, but am interested in those that have done it with one. Hi Tom, If it’s marginally not enough would it throw the breaker or would it harm the air conditioner’s compressor? Hunter http://members.aol.com/airstm2268/roadtrip2003.htm

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I remember last year in the Bad Lands NP when we nearly died and packed up after one night because of the heat.  Wow!

I hear that.  There was a heat wave in Vermont when I was there in late June, early July for the International Airstream rally.  One day it got up to 104 in my trailer…. I can handle that but I felt terrible for my poor longhaired dogs and cats.  I did have fans aimed at them so they did okay…. cats don’t seem too bothered by heat, and I took the dogs for long rides in the truck with the a/c on. That said, for the $1,000.00 the EU2000 costs I can stay in alot of campgrounds with 30 amp service. I am eyeing the EU1000, mostly because I can lift it easily (28 lbs). I almost never boondock, but if I could watch my satellite and keep the computer charged I might try it. (c: Hunter http://members.aol.com/airstm2268/roadtrip2003.htm

Response:

Yes, I remember the dogs at Zolfo Springs about 3 years ago.  We were next to you in the W&E section.  I already have a 1000, and it does fine for recharging, etc. If I get enough positive response on capability of occasional AC usage, I will try to sell my 1000 and move up to a 2000.  The payback DOES take a while, but comfort pays back very quickly   ;) ) — Tom M (Remove *deletenospam* from my address)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I remember last year in the Bad Lands NP when we nearly died and packed up after one night because of the heat.  Wow! I hear that.  There was a heat wave in Vermont when I was there in late June, early July for the International Airstream rally.  One day it got up to 104 in my trailer…. I can handle that but I felt terrible for my poor longhaired dogs and cats.  I did have fans aimed at them so they did okay…. cats don’t seem too bothered by heat, and I took the dogs for long rides in the truck with the a/c on. That said, for the $1,000.00 the EU2000 costs I can stay in alot of campgrounds with 30 amp service. I am eyeing the EU1000, mostly because I can lift it easily (28 lbs). I almost never boondock, but if I could watch my satellite and keep the computer charged I might try it. (c: Hunter http://members.aol.com/airstm2268/roadtrip2003.htm

Response:

Our EU2000i has only tripped once maybe twice when running the microwave while the AC was already on.  That was the kind of mistake I make when I’m not paying attention. We only use it when booning, fridge on gas, to run the AC or charge the house battery.  A couple times we have used it when down loading our digital camera and charging a cell and a few other portable things that needed it.  It is so portable. It is easy to pick up and move to the opposite side of the camper.  We will move the placement to enjoy a quite outside rest, give a neighborly break to someone, or if we smell it. I couldn’t do that with my old onboard 2.5Kw Koehler.  That I cut out and had a welder make a nice box the store the 2000i.  It is about the wt. of a heavy suitcase. The tandem rig wouldn’t be easy to move, I would think.  And as I said earlier I don’t need it, one is plenty.  I like the eco-throttle.  I do have a little cable lock on it that is made for bikes.  I also installed a combo Tach/Clock that I would suggest.  The new box makes my ride quieter as it has reduced road roar. That does it.  I haven’t any regrets about the unit.  Except. my wife can’t pull start it. Jonathan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — Tom M (Remove *deletenospam* from my address) Thanks Hunter, I ran into another SKP while boondocking in Michigan late summer who just used one EU2000i, and I see above that someone else has done it with one. I have seen the parallel also, but am interested in those that have done it with one. Hi Tom, If it’s marginally not enough would it throw the breaker or would it harm the air conditioner’s compressor? Hunter http://members.aol.com/airstm2268/roadtrip2003.htm

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Question:

They lied to you.  They remembered you from the first time, and didn’t want to endure it again.

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Looks like the resort (or condos nearby) re-opened … it was closed. When the resort closed, an eco-tourism outfit opened in the vicinity … this is up-scale camping. http://www.castleresorts.com/KKV/activities.html  (Not the eco-tourism outfit) Note (on the activities list) that the Kaluakoi golf course is not itemized.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Several years ago I stayed in a condo on Molokai and played the Kalua Koi resort course, which was spectacular, reasonably priced, and uncrowded. 3 years ago we wanted to go back but were told the course and hotel were closed for renovations.  I am going back to Hawaii next year and starting to plan the trip and can’t find consistent web info on the course (many sites promote it, but the most official one says it’s closed).  Anyone been there recently to tell me the real story?  (If not, I guess it’s time to try that old fashioned telephone thingie :-) Warren, Based on Hawaii magazine current edition, Kaluakoi seems to be open.   Like you I was there several years ago and loved the place, the whole island actually. Looks like you will have to make a call. When I was there we stayed at the Kaluakoi Resort in a cottage just off the 9th (I think) green. My wife and I are also planning a couple of weeks out there spring 2004.  Can’t wait. Joe

Response:

Several years ago I stayed in a condo on Molokai and played the Kalua Koi resort course, which was spectacular, reasonably priced, and uncrowded.  3 years ago we wanted to go back but were told the course and hotel were closed for renovations.  I am going back to Hawaii next year and starting to plan the trip and can’t find consistent web info on the course (many sites promote it, but the most official one says it’s closed).  Anyone been there recently to tell me the real story?  (If not, I guess it’s time to try that old fashioned telephone thingie :-)

Warren, Based on Hawaii magazine current edition, Kaluakoi seems to be open.   Like you I was there several years ago and loved the place, the whole island actually. Looks like you will have to make a call. When I was there we stayed at the Kaluakoi Resort in a cottage just off the 9th (I think) green. My wife and I are also planning a couple of weeks out there spring 2004.  Can’t wait. Joe

Response:

Unfortunately Kaluakoi is closed because of the economy. It was a good course.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Several years ago I stayed in a condo on Molokai and played the Kalua Koi resort course, which was spectacular, reasonably priced, and uncrowded.  3 years ago we wanted to go back but were told the course and hotel were closed for renovations.  I am going back to Hawaii next year and starting to plan the trip and can’t find consistent web info on the course (many sites promote it, but the most official one says it’s closed).  Anyone been there recently to tell me the real story?  (If not, I guess it’s time to try that old fashioned telephone thingie :-) — http://home.att.net/~wamontgomery )

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Who lives in a pineapple under the sea, "warren montgomery" Several years ago I stayed in a condo on Molokai and played the Kalua Koi resort course, which was spectacular, reasonably priced, and uncrowded.  3 years ago we wanted to go back but were told the course and hotel were closed for renovations.  I am going back to Hawaii next year and starting to plan the trip and can’t find consistent web info on the course (many sites promote it, but the most official one says it’s closed).  Anyone been there recently to tell me the real story?  (If not, I guess it’s time to try that old fashioned telephone thingie :-)

Try www.stand-bygolf.com I haven’t used them for Hawaii but they were great in Palm Springs. — Cheers, –Jeff Let’s Go Orange!

Response:

Several years ago I stayed in a condo on Molokai and played the Kalua Koi resort course, which was spectacular, reasonably priced, and uncrowded.  3 years ago we wanted to go back but were told the course and hotel were closed for renovations.  I am going back to Hawaii next year and starting to plan the trip and can’t find consistent web info on the course (many sites promote it, but the most official one says it’s closed).  Anyone been there recently to tell me the real story?  (If not, I guess it’s time to try that old fashioned telephone thingie :-) — http://home.att.net/~wamontgomery )

Response:

Question:

Ok, I bought that 1983 Chevy 20 MH.  This MH/RV also came with a little tow buggy (as I call it).  Imagine one of those square, heavy-duty plastic hard-shell-with-hinged-cover, car-top carrier except instead of putting it on top of the car roof, this one is permanently mounted to a similarly sized platform on a hitch trailer (very small) with proper lights.  It’s not nearly as wide as the MH – heck – I can’t even see it in any rearview mirrors unless I see its shadow!  This little buggy also has its own title and tag.  It’s rated 250 TW and 2000 GMTW (or is that MGTW?) – at least that’s what’s stamped on the hitch tongue :) Here’s my dilemma.  I want to haul two bicycles and somehow tack them either onto the RV or onto the little buggy.  But, there’s no way to mount these bikes directly onto that little buggy without it having its own bike rack — I’d rather not buy two bike racks when one will do the trick.  Mind, we will rarely use that tow buggy, but when we do, we will also want to take our bikes.  And, it seems to me there are bike racks that mount between the RV & the tow buggy.  I did some Google searching and came up with the following two possibilities that might solve my dilemma: <http://www.hitchracks.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Cod…    and/or <http://www.reesehitch.com/bike_4_carrier.html So, I’d like to ask y’all’s opinions about the bike racks listed above, and please tell me about any other bike rack option(s) I don’t know enough to know about :)  My single most concern is the distance between the hitch receiver joint (correct term?) and the vertical bar of the bike rack.  There has to be enough horizontal clearance for the RV spare tire that is mounted on the backdoor (I hope I make sense here?).  I believe I need at least 9" to clear that spare tire on the back of the RV?  The first URL listed above states "distance between upright bar and the center of the pin hole measures 10"."  I don’t know about the second URL and will have to contact the vendor. Thanks again, and so my saga continues  . . . . . Skyhooks    hmardis "aht" uiuc "daught" edu "reply to" address antispammed — get rid of the xxx.

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Hi I have one of the reese 4 bike racks ,with a hitch ball set up . It slides into the 2" receiver and has a ball at the other end with a 2500lbs rating ! The rack itself will come down after you pull a pin so you can get your spare off without taking all the bikes off . This has worked very well for me with 4 bikes the trailer a motorcycle and a canoe on top . Take a look at them if you have a dealer nearby they are very skookum ! — Chuck

also want to take our bikes.  And, it seems to me there are bike racks that mount between the RV & the tow buggy.  I did some Google searching and came up with the following two possibilities that might solve my dilemma:

<http://www.hitchracks.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Cod… roduct_Code=7981&Category_Code=hmt – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –    and/or <http://www.reesehitch.com/bike_4_carrier.html

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I’ve been using a vertical hitch mounted bike rack made by Yakima for about a year and it’s similar in the type to the one’s you found. The problem I have with the vertical type like these is that it grabs the top of the bike and the bike can sway in the wind. At least that’s what happens to mine and I can’t go over 60 MPH (using my car) with my new bike on the Yakima because it sways to badly I’m afraid it could work it’s way loose and drag on ground or something before it breaks off. I’ve been looking at some web sites like camping world and I found this place called Wine Country RV that has a HUGE catalog. Anyway, here’s what they have that might work for you. I haven’t been to this store yet but I’m planning a trip up to Napa in a few weeks to see the store on the way to Lake Berryessa (if things work out). http://www.go-rv.com/coast/do/catalog/page?dealerId=1110&pageNum=470 Regards – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Ok, I bought that 1983 Chevy 20 MH.  This MH/RV also came with a little tow buggy (as I call it).  Imagine one of those square, heavy-duty plastic hard-shell-with-hinged-cover, car-top carrier except instead of putting it on top of the car roof, this one is permanently mounted to a similarly sized platform on a hitch trailer (very small) with proper lights.  It’s not nearly as wide as the MH – heck – I can’t even see it in any rearview mirrors unless I see its shadow!  This little buggy also has its own title and tag.  It’s rated 250 TW and 2000 GMTW (or is that MGTW?) – at least that’s what’s stamped on the hitch tongue :) Here’s my dilemma.  I want to haul two bicycles and somehow tack them either onto the RV or onto the little buggy.  But, there’s no way to mount these bikes directly onto that little buggy without it having its own bike rack — I’d rather not buy two bike racks when one will do the trick.  Mind, we will rarely use that tow buggy, but when we do, we will also want to take our bikes.  And, it seems to me there are bike racks that mount between the RV & the tow buggy.  I did some Google searching and came up with the following two possibilities that might solve my dilemma: <http://www.hitchracks.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Cod…   and/or <http://www.reesehitch.com/bike_4_carrier.html So, I’d like to ask y’all’s opinions about the bike racks listed above, and please tell me about any other bike rack option(s) I don’t know enough to know about :)  My single most concern is the distance between the hitch receiver joint (correct term?) and the vertical bar of the bike rack.  There has to be enough horizontal clearance for the RV spare tire that is mounted on the backdoor (I hope I make sense here?).  I believe I need at least 9" to clear that spare tire on the back of the RV?  The first URL listed above states "distance between upright bar and the center of the pin hole measures 10"."  I don’t know about the second URL and will have to contact the vendor. Thanks again, and so my saga continues  . . . . . Skyhooks   hmardis "aht" uiuc "daught" edu "reply to" address antispammed — get rid of the xxx.

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