Question:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Secondly, anybody who’s seen the campsite in question (who has 1/2 a brain in their head) could have predicted this sort of episode a long time ago. There are too many inexperienced people with too much unprotected food and inadequate food storage facilities. Either that camp ground gets bear boxes (and alot of them) or the number of permits gets reduced or we should just expect this sort of thing to get repeated. I’d be in favor of huge fines for inadequated stored food but I’d hate to see rangers become even more police like and I know that there are long time Sierra veterans who would disagree on how to properly store food. Some here even sleep with it in their tents. Note the reports so far, indicate that the food in this situation was either stored in bear canisters or hung over pre-set bear bag wires. Third, this could have happened to anybody who takes the ranger’s advice on how to deal with intruding bears. Yes, I’ve heard the lectures and read the literature and yes, rangers are quick to point out that you need to be careful NOT to hit the bears. But at night, I couldn’t guarantee that I wouldn’t hit it. Could you? You could refuse to throw the rock and therefore encourage the bear to raid camps. What to do? Dave Mann | "It is impossible, or not easy, to do | noble acts without the proper equipment."
The policies and characteristics of the scouting organization are and should be open to debate….but these subjects shoud not be posted here. As to the efficacy of the scouting organization’s policies regarding bear-human incident avoidance…one need only to look at the record of the BSA’s largest wilderness camp in New Mexico (Philmont). I believe that the numerical data will support the conclusion that Philmont’s fanatical attention to "smellables" has lead to an extraordinary good record in avoiding these problems. The penalties for violating bear protection policies at Philmont are severe. The pepetrators are handed over to New Mexico authorities for substantial fines and are then barred from Philmont attendence permanently. The troop in question is also barred from attendance for a period of 3 years. Additional penalties for the adult leaders is probable. I have witnessed the worst backcountry behavior **and** the best backcountry behavior from scouting organizations. The best troops truly love and protect the land, and it seems to me that whenever this love of the land is paramont – scouting works. It is only when adult political agendas displace this basic respect – that scouting fails. So, I would encourage all of you **Real** lovers of the outdoors to communicate your thoughts to your local scouts. Try to sell them on the concept of protecting the land…so it can be enjoyed by THEIR grandchildren. Sincerely, Art Doyle
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mann) writes: Secondly, anybody who’s seen the campsite in question (who has 1/2 a brain in their head) could have predicted this sort of episode a long time ago. There are too many inexperienced people with too much unprotected food and inadequate food storage facilities. It sounds like this is the biggest problem. I just posted a reply to some inexperienced woman who was under the impression that it is perfectly OK to leave peelings, apple cores, etc (in other words, human food waste) in the backcountry. You can’t tell me SHE learned this as a Boy Scout! It’s
Heh. In point of fact, it depends a bit on where you are. Apples have become an important wildlife food source in much of the Appalachians, where old farmsteads have been taken back by the forest, and their apple trees have spread around. That said, in developed or crowded camping areas, it only makes sense to clean up foodstuffs that much more thoroughly, for aesthetic as well as wildlife reasons. But hiking around in the booneys around here…yeah, I’ll still toss an apple core…the chipmunks will make short work of it. On a Utah mesa or an alpine meadow, or something durable & nonnative like orange peels, of course not. This does presume the background and capacity for some discrimination, however. — Brad Whitehurst | Aerospace Research Lab
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Dave: Hear, hear! Thank you for a reasoned posting and for re-focusing the discussion on finding a solution rather than on vigilante justice. Kelly
I would like to add that a bear doesn’t understand that you are throwing rocks at it unless you hit it. It was an unfortunate shot that killed the bear. Too bad, but I’ve hit many bears with 2-3 pund rocks in the Sierra, then they leave me alone. I mean we are talking about an animal which will climb a tree and jump onto a branch and then bounce on the ground with no harm.
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There you go again Dave, saying it better than I could. say, if I want to go into politics, are you available to tell me how to say it right. Justice, thats what is lacking. These net cowboys are quick to grab a rope without any though to facts or justice. makes me proud to be an american! Keep up the good work but watch your back, the rabble hates an inteligent and articulate citizen even more than the authorities does! Peace friend. | |…… Seek harmony and balance in the mountains, find harmony and balance within…..
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Dave: Hear, hear! Thank you for a reasoned posting and for re-focusing the discussion on finding a solution rather than on vigilante justice. Kelly
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<snip I’d be in favor of huge fines for inadequated stored food
Earlier this summer somewhere in British Columbia, 3 or 4 tents were attacked by bears. No-one was killed, but the occupants of 1 or 2 of the tents were fined $2000 each for improper storage of their food. Julie
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: these criminals should bear the full burden of all : applicable laws. and here’s a great chance for the : boy scouts to stand up and show some values: disband the : troop and dishonorably discharge the perpetrators. : to do less would certainly implicate the organization : as a whole in turning a blind eye to such callousness : and reckless disregard for the values they presumably : espouse. This crap makes me sick. Makes me wonder if the net has helped us move back to the good old days when a group of good citizens would stretch the neck of a horse thief without burdening the justice system. A couple of points… From what I can tell, nobody posting on this thread was there that night to witness the events. And even if we did get some first hand accounts, I doubt they would be believed. And yet, they are already "criminals". That’s disgusting. Secondly, anybody who’s seen the campsite in question (who has 1/2 a brain in their head) could have predicted this sort of episode a long time ago. There are too many inexperienced people with too much unprotected food and inadequate food storage facilities. Either that camp ground gets bear boxes (and alot of them) or the number of permits gets reduced or we should just expect this sort of thing to get repeated. I’d be in favor of huge fines for inadequated stored food but I’d hate to see rangers become even more police like and I know that there are long time Sierra veterans who would disagree on how to properly store food. Some here even sleep with it in their tents. Note the reports so far, indicate that the food in this situation was either stored in bear canisters or hung over pre-set bear bag wires. Third, this could have happened to anybody who takes the ranger’s advice on how to deal with intruding bears. Yes, I’ve heard the lectures and read the literature and yes, rangers are quick to point out that you need to be careful NOT to hit the bears. But at night, I couldn’t guarantee that I wouldn’t hit it. Could you? You could refuse to throw the rock and therefore encourage the bear to raid camps. What to do? Dave Mann | "It is impossible, or not easy, to do | noble acts without the proper equipment."
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– Hear Hear ….. I am in complete agreement with you - I just posted a similar thread that I am fed up with these lynching mobs.
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Actually, I’m not a woman and I’m not that entirely inexperienced. Get your facts straight. Damian "I want to stay as close to the edge as I can without going over. Out on the edge you see all kinds of things you can’t see from the center." –Vonnegut
Response:
mann) writes: Secondly, anybody who’s seen the campsite in question (who has 1/2 a brain in their head) could have predicted this sort of episode a long time ago. There are too many inexperienced people with too much unprotected food and inadequate food storage facilities.
It sounds like this is the biggest problem. I just posted a reply to some inexperienced woman who was under the impression that it is perfectly OK to leave peelings, apple cores, etc (in other words, human food waste) in the backcountry. You can’t tell me SHE learned this as a Boy Scout! It’s people like this who train the bears to go after human food. Then we wonder why the bears are such a problem? Sheesh!
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