Question:
Hey, where do you find those? Last time I ate a freeze-dried Bl} Band, I had great problems trying to tell which way it was going. It looks the same both ways and tastes like it looks.
I find the taste, look etc. of the Bl} Band freeze dried meals excellent. And it only improves of the addition of chocolate, cheese, sports drink powder, dry bread, dried fruit, musli etc. Or at least I thought so until I ate one of the Bl} Band meals at home. What a disappointment, I guess I wasn’t really hungry… BTW, I find pemmikane the best backcountry food, althoug it is quite labor- some to make: Dry meat or fish. Chop it together with dried fruit, berries etc. Mix it with liquid (warm it) cocoa fat or some other hard fat (kidney fat) and make balls of the mass. Dip the balls in the liquid fat to get an air proof cover. Good energy value. Light weight. Conserves well. Excellent taste. (Was) used by the American Indians. And now that I got on to the subject. Take a few big plastic (PET) coke bottles. Fill them with some liquid fat (vegetable oil), preferably one which does not rise your colesterol levels. And now you have in easy to use, easy to monitor usage, difficult to break, light weight packages optimal energy/weight ratio food, 39kJ/g (9kcal/g). I have yet to test this idea. Obviously one also needs carbohydrates and proteins, not to mention vitamins. The idea is to get the extra energy needed in tough conditions in the form of fat, and I wonder wether a fat rich diet would have any adversary effects. Markus Bjoerksten
Response:
Swedish Blo Bland "hiking meals" available here in Finland…. a meal weighs about 130g, of which you get 500g of DELICIOUS food.
Hey, where do you find those? Last time I ate a freeze-dried Bl} Band, I had great problems trying to tell which way it was going. It looks the same both ways and tastes like it looks. I my experience you can use the freeze-dried stuff to transport the energy, but if you want your food to taste like real food, use some spices. Or your head. I sometimes taken my spice pack along to the cafeteria at the university, with great success. Their food certainly could use some improvement, too. Garlic, different peppers, salt, paprika, ginger, chili, parmesani cheese… Some people carry dried mushrooms, too. I have found that there are backpackers that think that food is a necessary vice that has to be suffered so that they can get as many miles that day as possible. And then there are others that buy the lightest possible fiberglass poles for their tent, so that they can carry one more can of goose liver pate. And then the great majority that falls between the two extermes. — Helsinki University of Technology, Computer Center, Finland
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I show the conversion to be 4.18689 Joules/Cal. Is it common in some places to rate the energy content of food in Joules? Thanks for the conversion factor. Hmm. I just pulled one more book from the shelf, and found the factor — except that it says 4.1840 J/cal. I’ll have to ask the author (my father) about the discrepancy. After all, I wouldn’t want to eat 1 kcal/day too much due to using the wrong conversion! The official SI unit of energy is the joule, which = 1 kg m^2 / s^2. The calorie, although nominally based on metric units, depends on temperature and physical properties ( = the energy required to raise the temperature of 1ml of water by 1K ?). Thus the joule (or KJ) is likely to be more and more the preferred unit. Hmm, I can find at least 4 differently defined "calories", some which are "Calorie", and some "calorie". There’s the International Table calorie (4.1868 cal/J), mean calorie (4.19002), thermochemical calorie (4.1840), the 15 degree C calorie (4.18580), and the 20 degree C calorie (4.18190). Wow, no wonder Joules make more sense! I know that the calorie used for food is NOT the same as the calorie I have used on occasion for engineering calculations, but I am not sure off the top of my head which is which!
I first looked up the Joule<-calorie conversion in my pocket calculator manual. I have since checked: 1. The Handbook of Heat Transfer Fundamentals, 2nd Ed., 1972, Rohsenow, Hartnett & Genic’. Which shows 1 cal. = 4.1868 Joules 2. The CRC Handbook of Chem. & Physics, 71st Ed., 1990. Which shows 1 Joule = 0.238846 cal and 1 Kilocalorie = 4186.8 Joules. More important than the exact value of the 3rd digit is that (and do I feel stupid about this) in the US the energy value of food is listed in Cal. which is "kilogram calories" = 1000 calories = kcal. It never even crossed my mind that I could not survive for 24 hours on just enough heat to warm two 12 oz (335 ml) Diet Cokes from 0 deg. C to 37 deg. C. (body temp). If that were true, you could drink two sodas and go into hypothermia. I shouldn’t feel too bad, I polled several PHD Physicists about this and the only one who understood the difference had been through Weight Watchers. 
Donald Newcomb
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I show the conversion to be 4.18689 Joules/Cal. Is it common in some places to rate the energy content of food in Joules? Thanks for the conversion factor. Hmm. I just pulled one more book from the shelf, and found the factor — except that it says 4.1840 J/cal. I’ll have to ask the author (my father) about the discrepancy. After all, I wouldn’t want to eat 1 kcal/day too much due to using the wrong conversion! The official SI unit of energy is the joule, which = 1 kg m^2 / s^2. The calorie, although nominally based on metric units, depends on temperature and physical properties ( = the energy required to raise the temperature of 1ml of water by 1K ?). Thus the joule (or KJ) is likely to be more and more the preferred unit.
Hmm, I can find at least 4 differently defined "calories", some which are "Calorie", and some "calorie". There’s the International Table calorie (4.1868 cal/J), mean calorie (4.19002), thermochemical calorie (4.1840), the 15 degree C calorie (4.18580), and the 20 degree C calorie (4.18190). Wow, no wonder Joules make more sense! I know that the calorie used for food is NOT the same as the calorie I have used on occasion for engineering calculations, but I am not sure off the top of my head which is which! Brad Whitehurst | .sig??? We don’t need no steenking .sig!! | | |
Response:
I show the conversion to be 4.18689 Joules/Cal. Is it common in some places to rate the energy content of food in Joules? Thanks for the conversion factor. Hmm. I just pulled one more book
from the shelf, and found the factor — except that it says 4.1840 J/cal. I’ll have to ask the author (my father) about the discrepancy. After all, I wouldn’t want to eat 1 kcal/day too much due to using the wrong conversion! OK, lets get really pedantic: The calorie (more specifically, the number you gave above is for the gram calorie or small calorie, not to be confused with the kilogram calorie, which as you might expect is 1000 time bigger, and really the unit we use for food energy) has had various meanings over years. The U. S. National Bureau of Standards defines the calorie as exactly 4.184000 joules. This is derived from the S. I. standard, not measured, and so is an exact number relative to the joule. The older calorie was a fundamental unit, obtained by actually heating up a bucket of water and measuring the amount of heat it required to raise one gram of water one degree C. This is, of course, an approximation, because of experimental error. There were also different conventions for things like the starting temperature of the water at which the measurement was made. Worse yet, there are two different kinds of Joules So: Cal (gm) (NBS) = 4.184 Joules Cal (gm) (mean) = 4.19002 Joules Cal (gm) (IST) = 4.18675 Joules Ca. (gm) (15deg. C) = 4.18580 Joules Cal (gm) (20 deg. C) = 4.18190 Joules Cal (gm) (NBS) = 4.18331 Joules (INT) Cal (gm) (mean) = 4.18932 Joules (INT) Cal (gm) (IST) = 4.18606 Joules (INT) None of these are the number quoted by Don Newcomb in the first paragraph, above. Interesting! And just to put this all in perspective, it is worth noting that the metabolic energy content of food seems to be a very hard thing to measure, and references may disagree with each other by a lot. For example, I’ve seen numbers ranging from 3000 to 4000 calories per pound for fat. /Dave
Response:
I show the conversion to be 4.18689 Joules/Cal. Is it common in some places to rate the energy content of food in Joules?
Thanks for the conversion factor. Hmm. I just pulled one more book from the shelf, and found the factor — except that it says 4.1840 J/cal. I’ll have to ask the author (my father) about the discrepancy. After all, I wouldn’t want to eat 1 kcal/day too much due to using the wrong conversion! The official SI unit of energy is the joule, which = 1 kg m^2 / s^2. The calorie, although nominally based on metric units, depends on temperature and physical properties ( = the energy required to raise the temperature of 1ml of water by 1K ?). Thus the joule (or KJ) is likely to be more and more the preferred unit. Figures for normal male 70kg.
Remember that these figures will vary a great deal from one individual to another. They represent good starting point, but you must determine what your own body requires. At the extreme, bicyclists in the RAAM (Race Across AMerica) are reported to require about 14 000 cal (59 000 KJ) per day. Since they ride 20-21 hours per day, that fits with the 700 cal (2 900 KJ) per hour for heavy work. This is undoubtedly near the maximum possible. Edward Reid (8-} snail: PO Box 378/Greensboro FL 32330
Response:
My experience with freeze dried foods in cold climates is that they do not have enough FAT in them. FAT is God’s gift to mankind in cold weather. It is the only way to get enough calories without so much bulk that you feel bloated. Sugar runs a poor second.
Which is why for heavy winter mountaineering you pack margarine or butter to put in everthing including the freeze dried food. — Regards.
Response:
I could give information on daily requirements (which are highly variable, however) — but in Calories, and at the moment I can’t find the conversion factor for KJ.
I show the conversion to be 4.18689 Joules/Cal. Is it common in some places to rate the energy content of food in Joules? Donald Newcomb
Response:
My experience with freeze dried foods in cold climates is that they do not have enough FAT in them. FAT is God’s gift to mankind in cold weather. It is the only way to get enough calories without so much bulk that you feel bloated. Sugar runs a poor second. I have more or less given up on freeze dried, except for a small smattering as quick rations for days when time is of the essence. Otherwise I take complex carbohydrates (couscous, rice, potato powder, rotmo"s, spaghetti, macaroni, beans (esp. red lentils which cook fast), plus FAT, in the form of hard salami, pemmican, sausage, bacon, olive oil. In hot weather, FAT ™ goes rancid too fast. On the other hand, you don’t need as much of it in hot weather.
Response:
Kees Goossens (#18614) called dehydrated food "disgusting". Well, it depends on what stuff you eat – we have some REALLY tasty Swedish Blo Bland "hiking meals" available here in Finland…. a meal weighs about 130g, of which you get 500g of DELICIOUS food. There are several alternatives available. About efficiency of these foods: I have one bag of Blo Bland here and it says that 100g of the stuff has: * 2100 KJ energy * 17 g protein * 24 g fat * 50 g carbohydr. — —– Mikael Niku [a.k.a. Turilas] —– SnailMail: Puodinmaentie 23, 91900 Liminka, FINLAND
Response:
I could give information on daily requirements (which are highly variable, however) — but in Calories, and at the moment I can’t find the conversion factor for KJ.
Sleep 280 kJ/h ( 70 kcal) Marsch (4km/h flat terrain) 1 020 kJ/h ( 240 kcal) Marsch w packing (27kg, 4km/h, easy terrain) 2 280 kJ/h ( 545 kcal) Heavy marsch, heavy work 2 900 kJ/h ( 700 kcal) Light work 10 500 kJ/d (2 500 kcal) Normal military action in field 18 350 kJ/d (4 400 kcal) Stationary survival situtation, day 1 18 765 kJ/d (4 500 kcal) day 2 12 510 kJ/d (3 000 kcal) Non-stationary survival situation in extreme cold 25 000 kJ/d (6 000 kcal) For an efficient burning of body fat an intake of approximately 2000 kJ/d (500kcal) of carbohydrates is needed. Endurance when moving 10km/d, no snow conditions, building of campsites: no food apprx 10d, with 2000kJ/d carbohyd 3 weeks. Need of water: about 2.5l/d, highly dependent on sweating etc. Endurance without water 1..2 days. Figures for normal male 70kg. Source: Swedish Army. Markus Bjoerksten
Response:
recently tried some dehydrated stuff. Well, it was digusting, which is what I expected. Now, my question is how efficient are these packets?
Obviously it all depends on how much water is eliminated. For some foods it can be very difficult to eliminate all the water and still have a semi-palatable food — meat dishes and fruit retain much better texture when freeze-dried than with traditional drying. (From your description, I assume you are talking about freeze-dried.) If you are not absolutely fixed on eating a specific kind of food, there are many common foods which are packaged with virtually no water: pasta, rice, lentils, oatmeal, instant potatoes. Thoroughly dried fruit contains little water. A slow trip through a grocery store will yield many possibilities. It’s mainly a question of personal preferences and finances. I could give information on daily requirements (which are highly variable, however) — but in Calories, and at the moment I can’t find the conversion factor for KJ. Edward Reid (8-} snail: PO Box 378/Greensboro FL 32330
Response:
I have some Sherpa snowshoes that need to be relaced. I need Sherpa’s phone number (or at the name of the city so I can use Information). By the way, has anyone tried to relace their Sherpas? If you have, I’d like to hear what you used and how well it worked. I’m thinking of trying nylon cord unless I can find a cheap source of neoprene lacing.
Response:
I have some Sherpa snowshoes that need to be relaced. I need Sherpa’s phone number (or at the name of the city so I can use Information). By the way, has anyone tried to relace their Sherpas? If you have, I’d like to hear what you used and how well it worked. I’m thinking of trying nylon cord unless I can find a cheap source of neoprene lacing.
800/621-2277 Sherpa Inc. 810 Wisconsin St. Walworth, WI 53184 At REI and other places, you can buy a kit to relace your sherps. It is relatively easy and straightforward. And cheap. I had to have more done to my sherpas so I had to send them in to get the work done. Not cheap, but they were quick, curteous, and did a good job. Good luck. Jim Klavetter Astronomy UMD College Park, MD 20742
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In contrast with the recent thread on real food in the backcountry, I recently tried some dehydrated stuff. Well, it was digusting, which is what I expected. Now, my question is how efficient are these packets? Measured in weight per energy value (gram/joule)? Remembering it off-hand it had 1800KJ in about 160g. A normal "Bachelors Indian Rice" packet of about 185g provided 1600KJ (again approximnate numbers). This gives a ration of ~11 KJ/g versus ~8 KJ/g. Is this significant on, say, a five day trip? One important aspect is that the dehydrated stuff does not need to be simmered, in contrast with the other packets which need 10 min. (It probably takes less than that as I put the rice in the cold water.) Does anybody have any more information about this (and also about average daily requirement in KJ for example)? Kees — Kees Goossens Keep in Touch with the Dutch: University of Edinburgh, Scotland UUCP: ..!mcsun!ukc!dcs!kgg Wiskunde is bouwen in de geest. — Luitzen Egbertus Jan Brouwer.
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