Camping How

Question:

Hi I am looking for some advice on GPS for aviation use in Australia. Is it possible to buy overseas and if so, how do I get hold of the aviation software for Australia. Is it worth spending on an expensive one such as the Garmin 295/296, or would a cheaper B/White unit do the same job such as a Magellan Any help appreciated John

Response:

Crikey – how long is a piece of elastic???? Well, this is what I would like…: I would recommend a Garmin unit that is capable of taking Jeppesen downloads (upgrades). Very handy that. (I use a GPS II+, an oldy but a goody. I put in all my own way points via a laptop – however I use these only in conjunction with other navaids and the Mark I eyeball, and if there is any error showing, the GPS is the first to go out. I NEVER use it for IFR). I would also look at one of the Garmins that are able to show an IFR "panel" – if things go pear shaped in the cockpit that may be a real handy bit of kit and get you out of big trouble. Also, have a back up power source, whether spare batteries or something like what is sold by "GPS" Geoff at the Scoffield Aero Club at Bankstown – a small 12v gel battery pack with leads that is capable of powering handheld electronic items for quite a while. I understand that in some aircraft that it is also capable of powering the panel, though you will have to be very careful of which aircraft and how they will cope with it. /pix

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi I am looking for some advice on GPS for aviation use in Australia. Is it possible to buy overseas and if so, how do I get hold of the aviation software for Australia. Is it worth spending on an expensive one such as the Garmin 295/296, or would a cheaper B/White unit do the same job such as a Magellan Any help appreciated John

Response:

Gidday John, The only general GPS I’ve had anything to do with is Garmin stuff. If you are going to use it for aviation I’d recommend one with an aviation data base, I’ve seen blokes use ones without, but the aviation info makes them easier to use around control areas. The Pilot 3 is good if you eyes are ok, if your getting a bit older the bigger screen of the 196 is better. Both are With the 196 you get a couple of mounts (a yoke and a dash) a spare aerial. The colour ones (296, 295) don’t seem to offer any more and only increase battery consumption, and are another $1000 more. With the optional fields in the displays on the 196 and 3 you can set the aircraft voltage (if you have the GPS hard wired to the aircraft) , a voltage gauge would proberbly cost as much as the GPS. — cedric Posted via OziPilots Online [ http://www.OziPilotsOnline.com.au ] – A website for Australian Pilots regardless of when, why, or what they fly –

Response:

Uhhh this is not directed to you actually .. I would recommend a Garmin unit that is capable of taking Jeppesen downloads (upgrades). Very handy that.

The Garmin 295 can do that and is only around $1500 now. New one is only better for the USA. Also has had waas for the last two years. With waas enabled, it is *very* accurate. Plan a flight around .5 miles (that is decimal miles)  right of the normal route to miss the blokes who go straight on the line. And try to fly hemis too Or go to Luna Park for the night  <grin. (I use a GPS II+, an oldy but a goody. I put in all my own way points via a laptop – however I use these only in conjunction with other navaids and the Mark I eyeball, and if there is any error showing, the GPS is the first to go out. I NEVER use it for IFR).

I was at a Casa thing recently and they said that the problem with gps is the inputs, not the equpiment.. No or very few actual sstem failures. I  would also look at one of the Garmins that are able to show an IFR "panel" – if things go pear shaped in the cockpit that may be a real handy bit of kit and get you out of big trouble.

Dunno if the 295 does that. will check rsn.. 269 may… Also, have a back up power source, whether spare batteries or something like what is sold by "GPS" Geoff at the Scoffield Aero Club at Bankstown – a small 12v gel battery pack with leads that is capable of powering handheld electronic items for quite a while. I understand that in some aircraft that it is also capable of powering the panel, though you will have to be very careful of which aircraft and how they will cope with it. /pix

 I have three battery packs on line in the pocket.. Leave them there… G. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi I am looking for some advice on GPS for aviation use in Australia. Is it possible to buy overseas and if so, how do I get hold of the aviation software for Australia. Is it worth spending on an expensive one such as the Garmin 295/296, or would a cheaper B/White unit do the same job such as a Magellan Any help appreciated John

Response:

I also have a Garmin GPS II + – got it off Ebay for around $300. Excellent starter unit.  It doesn’t have aviation map but does have a map. It depends how much you want to spend and how much you’ll use it. The new PDA based units are also good for around $1000 +

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi I am looking for some advice on GPS for aviation use in Australia. Is it possible to buy overseas and if so, how do I get hold of the aviation software for Australia. Is it worth spending on an expensive one such as the Garmin 295/296, or would a cheaper B/White unit do the same job such as a Magellan Any help appreciated John

Response:

Hi I am looking for some advice on GPS for aviation use in Australia. Is it possible to buy overseas and if so, how do I get hold of the aviation software for Australia. Is it worth spending on an expensive one such as the Garmin 295/296, or would a cheaper B/White unit do the same job such as a Magellan Any help appreciated John

They can be purchased overseas, aviation products are  the only Garmin products that you can buy on one continent intended for use on another Continent. I bought an Asia pacific 195 in the USA. IIRC there are three variants of the product, and for the ‘off the wall destinations’, you can get land data in cartridge form, albeit very dear. For example if you want Alaska and Northern Canada, it isnt on the Garmin base map for North America, but they will sell it to you in cartridge form. If your base map in Asia/pacific, you can buy North America in cartridge form. As I said however, dear, I paid about 400USD for it.  Garmin will not allow land GPS’s intended for use elsewhere to be sold in the USA, so if you want for example a GPSMAP76 with an Australia Base map, you cannot buy it in the USA or Europe.  Even if you have one for another zone, you can buy a land data cartridge (OUCH!), and always download the latest aviation data from Garmin for a modest fee.  I’ve always find the 195 (a B&W unit) more than adequate. Colour adds whistles and bells, but display very little additional useful information.

Response:

 Garmin will not allow land GPS’s intended for use elsewhere to be sold in the USA, so if you want for example a GPSMAP76 with an Australia Base map, you cannot buy it in the USA or Europe.  Even if you have one for another zone, you can buy a land data cartridge (OUCH!), and always download the latest aviation data from Garmin for a modest fee.  I’ve always find the 195 (a B&W unit) more than adequate. Colour adds whistles and bells, but display very little additional useful information.

Ah, just like DVD zoning…another form of manipulation of the market.

Response:

I also have a Garmin GPS II + – got it off Ebay for around $300. Excellent starter unit.  It doesn’t have aviation map but does have a map. It depends how much you want to spend and how much you’ll use it. The new PDA based units are also good for around $1000 +

Actually that is somthing that is really worth looking into  - PDA based GPS units. Garmin sells one as well ($AUS1400) that has a talking street map of Oz with a built-in GPS unit; from what I can understand you can then d/l aviation software with upgrades from Jeppesen. Someone here may like to add to this – I have had only a quick look at an example shown at the Camping & Caravan Supershow recently… /pix

Response:

Question:

1) Which day is the best to go? Saturday or Sunday? Do they tend to save the best for any particular day?

Can’t help.. ask the people there  they are very freindly and helpful. 2) I’m flying down on the morning of the airshow…are there any limits on arrival or departure times as to not impede the airshow?

 Its a CTAF and operated as  such if I recall… Plan to arrive before 10.00am to see the museum first. 3) How long does it take to go through the museum? I’m planning on flying in and out on the smae day, but if the museum combined with the airshow is too much for a single day, then i’ll stay overnight.

In November it was the best airshow I had been to in years as the aircraft are so close. Once again thanks for your help! Really appreciate it.

Go Saturday and stay overnight if you can.. Cheers ST

I told some of the people I know that if they pass their  cross country before it, I would help them get there to see it. I duuno that they are going to do that though! Make a radio calls a  fair way out as there can be others inbound  at similar hieghts/tracks.

Response:

Hi All I’m thinking of heading down to Temora for the March flying days. I’ve never been before and thoroughly looking forward to it! I’ve perused the website, but still have a few q’s about flying down there and the actual flying program. Thanks in advance for your help!! 1) Which day is the best to go? Saturday or Sunday? Do they tend to save the best for any particular day? 2) I’m flying down on the morning of the airshow…are there any limits on arrival or departure times as to not impede the airshow? 3) How long does it take to go through the museum? I’m planning on flying in and out on the smae day, but if the museum combined with the airshow is too much for a single day, then i’ll stay overnight. Once again thanks for your help! Really appreciate it. Cheers ST

Response:

I’ve been a few times and it doesn’t seem to matter which day you go.  They seem to have different aircraft flying each day so the best bet may be to stay overnight (aeroclub camping ground about 150m walk with good facilities.  Caravan avail if you are quick enough).  The aeroclub put on a pretty good do for the out of towners. As for flying in, people seem to arrive all day.  NOTAMS give the start/finish time and all aerobatics are West of main strip.  Just be on the right freq for the CTAF.  I’ve been there and people are still using 126.7. It’s been allocated 126.15 for some time!  You will enjoy the day, just take a few fold up chairs and find some high wing to hide under. As for the museum, I’ve been through it twice during flying days and its quite spartan…  Most of the things you want to look at are outside on the apron, fueled and waiting their turn to taxi for takeoff! Pete… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi All I’m thinking of heading down to Temora for the March flying days. I’ve never been before and thoroughly looking forward to it! I’ve perused the website, but still have a few q’s about flying down there and the actual flying program. Thanks in advance for your help!! 1) Which day is the best to go? Saturday or Sunday? Do they tend to save the best for any particular day? 2) I’m flying down on the morning of the airshow…are there any limits on arrival or departure times as to not impede the airshow? 3) How long does it take to go through the museum? I’m planning on flying in and out on the smae day, but if the museum combined with the airshow is too much for a single day, then i’ll stay overnight. Once again thanks for your help! Really appreciate it. Cheers ST

Response:

Question:

This is a difficult issue for several reasons but I’ll try to clarify it as far as I understand it. 1) Chemical type of rechargeable batteries: Some still come with nickel cadmium (NiCd)rechargeable..  This is bad simply because they don’t hold as much charge and developed a memory effect if charged before they are completely drained of juice thus don’t last long if charged before drained. Nickel-metal hydride (NiMH) rechargeable batteries don’t have the memory effect and is the minimum you want in a rechargeable battery set for FRS (proprietary configuration or not). I recommend NiHM batteries over NiCd batteries.

Well, it depends.  The memory problem for NiCads was solved years ago.  Here’s Panasonic’s excellent battery page.   http://www.panasonic.com/industrial/battery/oem/index.html The choice between Nicad and NiMH really depends on the use.  Nicads feature very low internal resistance capable of high discharge rates, very low self-discharge and low cost.  NiMH features higher capacity, lighter weight but has a very high self discharge rate (1-2%/day at ambient temperature) and moderate internal resistance, causing loss of capacity and heating at high discharge rate. For FRS radios, NiCads are appropriate if a) the available capacity is enough to get you through the day (or longer if you’re away from power to recharge) and b) you don’t use them very often.  NiMHs are appropriate if the capacity is needed –  about double NiCad for the same form factor, if weight matters and if the radios will be used and charged often.  With a self-discharge rate of 1-2%/day, leaving a fully charged NiMH sitting on the shelf for a month will result in a practically dead battery. 2) Charge capacity rating of batteries: NiMH come in various ratings (even in the same size) so you want the highest mAH rating for longevity of charge. The higher mAH (Milli-Amp-Hour) the better… 1700 to 1800 mAH seems to be the highest storage rating you can buy currently but some can be as low as 1100mAH which just won’t store as much juice.

2000 MaH NiMH AAs have just shown up.  Saw them at the Huntsville Hamfest last weekend.  $2.25 ea, hamfest special pricing from any of several battery dealers. 3) Physical and standard size of batteries: In my opinion, double A is the way to go since many applications run in on double A batteries and you can share your rechargeable NiHM batteries with other devices you may have. 4) Propriety size of batteries: Don’t get a radio with propriety rechargeable batteries, find a radio that will work with rechargeable or normal alkaline sized batteries.. (that is, AA or AAA). I use NiMH 1700 mAH size AA batteries and I would not even consider buying a FRS radio that used anything other then AA..  Simply because few products use AAA batteries and I can share my rechargeable NiMH size AA with my other devices.. Also by selecting a device that can use either rechargeable or alkaline, I keep my options open.

Yep.  I fully agree.  For my purposes, there isn’t one single solution for my FRS radios.  They may lay on the shelf for months with very little use and then when we go to a car show or something, be used heavily for several days running.  For the first situation I keep alkalines in the radios.  When we go to an event requiring heavy usage, I pop out the alkalines and pop in the 1800 mah NiMH batteries.  I carry about 2 dozen AAs with me and I have a 1 hour charger in the rig.  I share these batteries between my digital camera, my FRS radios and my photoflashes. Speaking of chargers, that Ray-O-Vac unit that places like WallyWorld sell on blister packs for $29 is the best one going right now.  It has 4 individual charge controllers so each cell is controlled independently.  From 1 to 4 cells can be charged at once.  It charges the 1800 mah cells in just over an hour.  Works well on a cheap inverter too. John Ben

— John De Armond http://personal.bellsouth.net/~johngd (old) http://bellsouthpwp.net/j/o/johngd/ (new) Cleveland, Occupied TN

Response:

I gave one to my dog, Al.  When I call him, he comes runninng, but I’m having a helluva time trying to teach him how to depress the talk button.<g

Just get a model that has VOX (Voice Activated Transmit).. Then when he speaks, you’ll hear it.. <g Ben

Response:

A license is not required for FRS correct?

You already got good info on that, a license is not required for FRS. FRS stands for Family Radio Service, BTW.. Another note about FRS radios..  Many, if not all,  use less power then a licensable radio because they broadcast using less power.. The effective range of a mile or two is really is all many people need. Nothing like those walkie-talkies that they had in the 60s and 70 that wouldn’t transmit around the corner.. When you buy, look in to power consumption as the most important factor with range and clarity also rated high..  Read some reviews. I have owned several brands.. My Kenwoods are the best hands down in my opinion when used for fairly short range (less then 1.5 miles). Why, because they are clear, have good/fair range, and I can leave them on 12 hours a day for about 4 days without getting a low batteries indicator.. Some FRS will only last a day on a set of batteries, many will last two days. Few will last longer then that..  When you are using them often, the last thing you want to do is change (or charge) the batteries.. Keep in mind (since you’ll be attending the PNWCO4) that many (if not all) of us will be using FRS. It is how we call people to the potluck and the breakfast. It’s how we communicate to the group in general. It makes it a lot of fun.. We’ll be on channel 6 at the campout… Ben

Response:

Power consumption – good tip. I found some that run on either re-chargeables OR AA alkalines.  Have you found performance to be better one way or t’other? Channel 6 it is. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – When you buy, look in to power consumption as the most important factor with range and clarity also rated high..  Read some reviews. I have owned several brands.. My Kenwoods are the best hands down in my opinion when used for fairly short range (less then 1.5 miles). Why, because they are clear, have good/fair range, and I can leave them on 12 hours a day for about 4 days without getting a low batteries indicator.. Some FRS will only last a day on a set of batteries, many will last two days. Few will last longer then that..  When you are using them often, the last thing you want to do is change (or charge) the batteries.. Keep in mind (since you’ll be attending the PNWCO4) that many (if not all) of us will be using FRS. It is how we call people to the potluck and the breakfast. It’s how we communicate to the group in general. It makes it a lot of fun.. We’ll be on channel 6 at the campout… Ben

Response:

Power consumption – good tip. I found some that run on either re-chargeables OR AA alkalines.  Have you found performance to be better one way or t’other?

This is a difficult issue for several reasons but I’ll try to clarify it as far as I understand it. 1) Chemical type of rechargeable batteries: Some still come with nickel cadmium (NiCd)rechargeable..  This is bad simply because they don’t hold as much charge and developed a memory effect if charged before they are completely drained of juice thus don’t last long if charged before drained. Nickel-metal hydride (NiMH) rechargeable batteries don’t have the memory effect and is the minimum you want in a rechargeable battery set for FRS (proprietary configuration or not). I recommend NiHM batteries over NiCd batteries. 2) Charge capacity rating of batteries: NiMH come in various ratings (even in the same size) so you want the highest mAH rating for longevity of charge. The higher mAH (Milli-Amp-Hour) the better… 1700 to 1800 mAH seems to be the highest storage rating you can buy currently but some can be as low as 1100mAH which just won’t store as much juice. 3) Physical and standard size of batteries: In my opinion, double A is the way to go since many applications run in on double A batteries and you can share your rechargeable NiHM batteries with other devices you may have. 4) Propriety size of batteries: Don’t get a radio with propriety rechargeable batteries, find a radio that will work with rechargeable or normal alkaline sized batteries.. (that is, AA or AAA). I use NiMH 1700 mAH size AA batteries and I would not even consider buying a FRS radio that used anything other then AA..  Simply because few products use AAA batteries and I can share my rechargeable NiMH size AA with my other devices.. Also by selecting a device that can use either rechargeable or alkaline, I keep my options open. Ben

Response:

I gave one to my dog, Al.  When I call him, he comes runninng, but I’m having a helluva time trying to teach him how to depress the talk button.<g Rick J.

What happened to the camel, did you give up on him? Wade

Response:

I gave one to my dog, Al.  When I call him, he comes runninng, but I’m having a helluva time trying to teach him how to depress the talk button.<g Rick J.

Damn, now i have something to try tomorrow.  I bet it’ll attach right to his collar.  I can’t believe I never thought of it before.  If it weren’t illegal, it’d be great for duck hunting…could give him all his commands all quiet like, instead of yelling, hmm.  Yep, gonna try this tomorrow, should be entertaining at the very least.  -Curt

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I gave one to my dog, Al.  When I call him, he comes runninng, but I’m having a helluva time trying to teach him how to depress the talk button.<g Rick J. Damn, now i have something to try tomorrow.  I bet it’ll attach right to his collar.  I can’t believe I never thought of it before.  If it weren’t illegal, it’d be great for duck hunting…could give him all his commands all quiet like, instead of yelling, hmm.  Yep, gonna try this tomorrow, should be entertaining at the very least.  -Curt

You want entertainment, tie it to his tail. — bill Theory don’t mean squat if it don’t work.

Response:

says… If it weren’t illegal, it’d be great for duck hunting…could give him all his commands all quiet like, instead of yelling, hmm.

Uhhh…get a WATERPROOF radio…. <g Have fun! Barrie B

Response:

Well… I bought some!  <wahoo – new toys! I got some Motorola’s that were packaged – two radios, dual-charger, two sets of NiCad rechargables extra face plates, belt hookemups et al. They will take 3 AAs (not AAA) and the book says they’ll run about twice as long on the AAs as the rechargables. There is a ‘conversion’ kit available for the NiHM as well (for more moola).  But I feel like I got a good deal.. whole shebang for under $60.00. Thanks for all the good input!

Response:

ck out  alt.radio.family they have all the info. Bear – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Meep, I have both the FRS and the GMRS and I love them both. Did you go all out and buy the license also? How many people actually buy this license and what are the chances of getting caught?  If I remember right it is $75.00/yr. Thats pretty expensive for a Walkie Talkie. I have been looking at the GMRS for a while and these are some of the questions I have. Ronnie

Response:

Damn, now i have something to try tomorrow.  I bet it’ll attach right to his collar.  I can’t believe I never thought of it before.  If it weren’t illegal, it’d be great for duck hunting…could give him all his commands all quiet like, instead of yelling, hmm.  Yep, gonna try this tomorrow, should be entertaining at the very least.  -Curt

LOL. Sassy has had her own "pager" for probably five or six years. It’s a training collar that signals her when I press a small remote control unit. She hears a high-pitched warble and immediately comes running back to me. It has about an 800′ range and works great. It’s not very versatile, but for a silent "Come!" command it can’t be beat. Look for them in any hunting or dog supplies catalog (Drs. Foster & Smith, Cabela’s, etc.). There are lots of models to choose from. GB in NC

Response:

For some unknown reason he switched from drinking water to burbon, but he got much better mileage with the water. I had to send him up to the WCRC (Warrenton Camel Rehabilitation Center).  Haven’t heard from them since! Rick J. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What happened to the camel, did you give up on him? Wade

Response:

If I remember right it is $75.00/yr. Thats pretty expensive for a Walkie Talkie. No, it’s 75 dollars for 5 years.. FYI, it’s a fine of $10,000 for the first offense of transmitting on a GMRS radio frequency without a license. Higher fines after the first offense..

Well, actually it’s almost always a warning letter, AKA Pink Ticket, on the first offense.  These days the second offence usually gets a warning letter too, given the understaffing at FCC.  When forfeitures (not fines) are levied, they’re usually in the sub-$100 range for individuals.  Even for grossly flagrant violations, such as running a high power pirate radio station or jamming public service channels, the forfeiture is usually in the $1-2k range. I can’t ever recall hearing of the max forfeiture being assessed. I don’t advocate breaking the rules but hyping this $10k-on-first-offense crapola is silly and false. There’s a place on the FCC web site that lists enforcement actions.  Reading some of those gives the distinct impression that the FCC now only goes after the most flagrant violators. John, who has a piece of pink wallpaper from his pirate radio mis-spent youth days. — John De Armond http://personal.bellsouth.net/~johngd (old) http://bellsouthpwp.net/j/o/johngd/ (new) Cleveland, Occupied TN

Response:

A license is not required for FRS correct?

Correct. Only for GMRS. FWIW, we use FRS for getting into our sites as well as doing the safety check when leaving. We have found this usage to be very useful. Alan Alan & Melanie Bryant The Dynamic Duo’s Website http://dynamicduo.ca

Response:

I gave one to my dog, Al.  When I call him, he comes runninng, but I’m having a helluva time trying to teach him how to depress the talk button.<g Rick J. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Do lots of folks use them for caravan-ing for example? I’m not looking for ‘reviews’ – found lots of that online already.  My sister’s family came up from Calif last week and had a set, one of which she gave to me and it was great!  I have a CB in the rig, but they didn’t, so that was out.  Calling each other on the cell wasn’t cost effective.  I was so impressed with these little things.  We used them in the campground as well – gave one to the kids when they were out and about so we could keep some tabs on them etc.. I figure even when not caravanning I can have my son use it when he’s riding his bike in the neighborhood and I can tell him to come home when dinner’s on! Anyway, there IS a question in here somewhere…. Do you use FRS, do you like it – do you think it was worth the money you spent? I’ve found some on e-bay (granted – wide variety of cheapies mixed in with gooduns) and am sorely tempted.

Response:

I use them quite often particularly when camping..  When camping with friends and we don’t or can’t always get campsites close to one another in the campground.. Most my friends have their own FRS radios and know what channel I’ll be on..  Generally, they leave their radios on all day within ear-shot and so do I so we can talk back and forth if we’re not congregated at one campsite at the time.. I find them very useful. Ben

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Do lots of folks use them for caravan-ing for example? I’m not looking for ‘reviews’ – found lots of that online already.  My sister’s family came up from Calif last week and had a set, one of which she gave to me and it was great!  I have a CB in the rig, but they didn’t, so that was out.  Calling each other on the cell wasn’t cost effective.  I was so impressed with these little things.  We used them in the campground as well – gave one to the kids when they were out and about so we could keep some tabs on them etc.. I figure even when not caravanning I can have my son use it when he’s riding his bike in the neighborhood and I can tell him to come home when dinner’s on! Anyway, there IS a question in here somewhere…. Do you use FRS, do you like it – do you think it was worth the money you spent? I’ve found some on e-bay (granted – wide variety of cheapies mixed in with gooduns) and am sorely tempted.

Response:

I think they make a voice-activated model.  So, your dog could tell you where he is and when he expects to be home. Cass

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I gave one to my dog, Al.  When I call him, he comes runninng, but I’m having a helluva time trying to teach him how to depress the talk button.<g Rick J. Do lots of folks use them for caravan-ing for example? I’m not looking for ‘reviews’ – found lots of that online already.  My sister’s family came up from Calif last week and had a set, one of which she gave to me and it was great!  I have a CB in the rig, but they didn’t, so that was out.  Calling each other on the cell wasn’t cost effective.  I was so impressed with these little things.  We used them in the campground as well – gave one to the kids when they were out and about so we could keep some tabs on them etc.. I figure even when not caravanning I can have my son use it when he’s riding his bike in the neighborhood and I can tell him to come home when dinner’s on! Anyway, there IS a question in here somewhere…. Do you use FRS, do you like it – do you think it was worth the money you spent? I’ve found some on e-bay (granted – wide variety of cheapies mixed in with gooduns) and am sorely tempted.

Response:

Do lots of folks use them for caravan-ing for example? I’m not looking for ‘reviews’ – found lots of that online already.  My sister’s family came up from Calif last week and had a set, one of which she gave to me and it was great!  I have a CB in the rig, but they didn’t, so that was out.  Calling each other on the cell wasn’t cost effective.  I was so impressed with these little things.  We used them in the campground as well – gave one to the kids when they were out and about so we could keep some tabs on them etc.. I figure even when not caravanning I can have my son use it when he’s riding his bike in the neighborhood and I can tell him to come home when dinner’s on! Anyway, there IS a question in here somewhere…. Do you use FRS, do you like it – do you think it was worth the money you spent? I’ve found some on e-bay (granted – wide variety of cheapies mixed in with gooduns) and am sorely tempted.

Response:

Do lots of folks use them for caravan-ing for example?

We do. I don’t have a CB in the rig. When I travel with my brothers we all have the FRS and use them, a lot. I’m not looking for ‘reviews’ – found lots of that online already.  My sister’s family came up from Calif last week and had a set, one of which she gave to me and it was great!  I have a CB in the rig, but they didn’t, so that was out.  Calling each other on the cell wasn’t cost effective.  I was so impressed with these little things.  We used them in the campground as well – gave one to the kids when they were out and about so we could keep some tabs on them etc..

I don’t have kids but we use the FRS to call from rig to rig. Works better than a cell for short range. I figure even when not caravanning I can have my son use it when he’s riding his bike in the neighborhood and I can tell him to come home when dinner’s on!

Excellent use. In addition if he needs help he can call you. Anyway, there IS a question in here somewhere…. Do you use FRS, do you like it – do you think it was worth the money you spent?

Worth every penny. I’ve found some on e-bay (granted – wide variety of cheapies mixed in with gooduns) and am sorely tempted.

Get em, you’ll use em. — Our personal web site about RV’s A work in progress! http://www.bobhatch.com

Response:

A license is not required for FRS correct?

That’s correct for both US and Canada. Wade

Response:

A license is not required for FRS correct?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Meep, I have both the FRS and the GMRS and I love them both. Did you go all out and buy the license also? How many people actually buy this license and what are the chances of getting caught?  If I remember right it is $75.00/yr. Thats pretty expensive for a Walkie Talkie. I have been looking at the GMRS for a while and these are some of the questions I have. Ronnie

Response:

If I remember right it is $75.00/yr. Thats pretty expensive for a Walkie Talkie.

No, it’s 75 dollars for 5 years.. FYI, it’s a fine of $10,000 for the first offense of transmitting on a GMRS radio frequency without a license. Higher fines after the first offense.. Ben

Response:

Meep, I have both the FRS and the GMRS and I love them both.

Did you go all out and buy the license also? How many people actually buy this license and what are the chances of getting caught?  If I remember right it is $75.00/yr. Thats pretty expensive for a Walkie Talkie. I have been looking at the GMRS for a while and these are some of the questions I have. Ronnie

Response:

Meep, I have both the FRS and the GMRS and I love them both. For camping, they are essential, in my view. Cass

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Do lots of folks use them for caravan-ing for example? I’m not looking for ‘reviews’ – found lots of that online already.  My sister’s family came up from Calif last week and had a set, one of which she gave to me and it was great!  I have a CB in the rig, but they didn’t, so that was out.  Calling each other on the cell wasn’t cost effective.  I was so impressed with these little things.  We used them in the campground as well – gave one to the kids when they were out and about so we could keep some tabs on them etc.. I figure even when not caravanning I can have my son use it when he’s riding his bike in the neighborhood and I can tell him to come home when dinner’s on! Anyway, there IS a question in here somewhere…. Do you use FRS, do you like it – do you think it was worth the money you spent? I’ve found some on e-bay (granted – wide variety of cheapies mixed in with gooduns) and am sorely tempted.

Response:

Question:

David also responded to this thread, and he is far more qualified than I to comment, but: I meant Dennis, Not David. Sorry.

Ed

Response:

Some details on the train ride and on Creel and El Fuerte are posted at http://www.geocities.com/sermextr/ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This thread is sure putting a different perspective on an excursion I had been dreaming about and I’m going to hit the books and consult with all my Amigos and learn the language so I can make that trip on my own. I had thought along with a lot of other folks that being escorted would be a nice safe way to explore the interior of Mexico there being comfort and strength in numbers. You all made it sound like it’s as simple as going to Springfield MO. I would sure like to think it was because Mexico fascinates me. Thanks for the ‘heads up’ also there seem to be no rave testimonials about the trainride. Stu

Response:

This thread is sure putting a different perspective on an excursion I had been dreaming about and I’m going to hit the books and consult with all my Amigos and learn the language so I can make that trip on my own. I had thought along with a lot of other folks that being escorted would be a nice safe way to explore the interior of Mexico there being comfort and strength in numbers. You all made it sound like it’s as simple as going to Springfield MO. I would sure like to think it was because Mexico fascinates me. Thanks for the ‘heads up’ also there seem to be no rave testimonials about the trainride. Stu

Stu: David also responded to this thread, and he is far more qualified than I to comment, but: It is nice to know a little of the language, and it is a great courtesy to the people,  but you sure don’t need it to travel Mexico. We have had people line up to practice their English (and some of them really needed it!). And if you really need a translator, find a school kid. They all study English. Once you get beyond the border towns, I believe the violent crime rate in Mexico is far below Springfield, MO. And I’m sure it is low in Springfield. Don’t drive at night. There are black cows in the road! Ed

Response:

This thread is sure putting a different perspective on an excursion I had been dreaming about and I’m going to hit the books and consult with all my Amigos and learn the language so I can make that trip on my own. I had thought along with a lot of other folks that being escorted would be a nice safe way to explore the interior of Mexico there being comfort and strength in

numbers.       Numbers are unnecessary and are likely to get in the way of what otherwise could be a nice relaxing trip. With a caravan you’ll be: somewhat insulated from the very people you want to meet, traveling at the speed of the slowest person and always part of a crowd. We’ve found the Mexicans to be extremely helpful when we had problems on the road and the main roads are patrolled by "Green Angels", green utility bed pickups sponsored by the Ministry of Tourism to help people with problems on the road.      While it’s very helpful and polite to know some spanish, it’s possible to travel in Mexico without any–been there, do that. My spanish is still abysmal. Many Mexicans speak some english and I wouldn’t wait until I was profecient before heading south. Numbers, please and thank you, and "LLano por favor" (ya-no with a long a)–fill it up please–are the most important words. We take along our dictionary in restuarants to translate the menus. You all made it sound like it’s as simple as going to Springfield MO. I would sure like to think it was because Mexico fascinates me.

    It’s just about is that simple. Once you’re across the border and south of the "free zone", where no papers are required, it’s no big deal. We like the regional guidebooks because they’re more detailed than the ones that try to cover all of Mexico and I don’t head south of the border without The Traveler’s Guide to Mexican Camping, by Mike and Terri Church, which is a wonderfully detailed guide to campgrounds in Mexico. www.rollinghomes.com Thanks for the ‘heads up’ also there seem to be no rave testimonials about the trainride.

      From Creel to El Fuerte the train ride is quite scenic, but it’s only spectacular in a few short sections. Creel and the surrounding area is a good place to get started, but there are many other parts of Mexico that are even more interesting. Personally I prefer tropical Mexico, south of the tropic of cancer. Dennis

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -While we were in Creel, we met a group going through the canyon with there rigs on flat cars. I believe there were about 15 motor homes. They had started in Chihuahua. As I recall, they said the trip was going to take 6 days. Spending that  much time in CC strapped to a flat car is not something I would enjoy. snip That was my take on it.  Some of them didn’t look too happy going by, with a white-knuckled grip on their lawn chairs.  Most stayed inside their Airstreams, presumably looking out.  I imagine listening to the "thump, thump…thump, thump" at 20 kph would begin to be less than thrilling by the second day.  It was for me when I rode 2nd class on the train from Chihuahua city to Los Mochis, and I didn’t have a swaying trailer to worry about. Bob

This thread is sure putting a different perspective on an excursion I had been dreaming about and I’m going to hit the books and consult with all my Amigos and learn the language so I can make that trip on my own. I had thought along with a lot of other folks that being escorted would be a nice safe way to explore the interior of Mexico there being comfort and strength in numbers. You all made it sound like it’s as simple as going to Springfield MO. I would sure like to think it was because Mexico fascinates me. Thanks for the ‘heads up’ also there seem to be no rave testimonials about the trainride. Stu

Response:

snip While we were in Creel, we met a group going through the canyon with there rigs on flat cars. I believe there were about 15 motor homes. They had started in Chihuahua. As I recall, they said the trip was going to take 6 days. Spending that  much time in CC strapped to a flat car is not something I would enjoy.

snip That was my take on it.  Some of them didn’t look too happy going by, with a white-knuckled grip on their lawn chairs.  Most stayed inside their Airstreams, presumably looking out.  I imagine listening to the "thump, thump…thump, thump" at 20 kph would begin to be less than thrilling by the second day.  It was for me when I rode 2nd class on the train from Chihuahua city to Los Mochis, and I didn’t have a swaying trailer to worry about. Bob

Response:

I can’t answer your questions, but perhaps this will be helpful: Last January, we drove our MH to Creel which, as you may know, is the gateway to the Copper Canyon. We parked our unit at the KOA there and took the train through CC. We spent the night in a very nice hotel in El Fuerte (super staff), had a great dinner and breakfast, and took the train back to our MH at the KOA. It was a most enjoyable trip. Cost: (campground, two first class train tickets, hotel, meals) about $450.

     This is similar to what I would suggest. We’ve ridden the train from Los Mochis to Creel and back, and driven to Creel in the Jeep. The section from Creel to El Fuerte is by far the most interesting section, from there to Los Mochis is flat open farm land and only major train buffs are likely to enjoy that section. The same goes for the section from Creel to Chihuahua once you’ve gotten a little ways out of Creel. Personally I think the second class train is by far a better value because the cars are clean and comfortable and you get a chance to rub shoulders with the locals. The second class ticket was about half the price of the first class fare. The second class train lacks a dining car, but snacks and cold sodas are available. I’d suggest taking along a big sack lunch. If I was to make the trip again I’d stop for the night in one of the towns between Creel and El Fuerte, probably Terminis. There’s a lot of interesting places to see in the vicinity of Creel. For those with a sturdy vehicle and steady nerves I’d suggest the spectacular drive to Botapilias. For those without a sturdy vehicle and even steadier nerves I’d suggest taking the bus down one day and riding back out the next.     By skipping the piggy-back caravan you can not only save a substanial sum of money, but you can see more of the area. It an easy area to visit and the main roads are in reasonably good condition. You could easily add side trips to Basseasechic falls, the Menonite country near Cauhtemoc, the ruins of Paquime and Mata Ortiz, which is famous for pottery. We consider Los Mochis to be just someplace to overnight on our way to more interesting places further south. Dennis

Response:

GREETINGS Would love to hear from folks who have gone on these caravans where they put your  rig on a flatcar and take you  on the Copper Canyon railroad in Mexico. Crick:

I can’t answer your questions, but perhaps this will be helpful: Last January, we drove our MH to Creel which, as you may know, is the gateway to the Copper Canyon. We parked our unit at the KOA there and took the train through CC. We spent the night in a very nice hotel in El Fuerte (super staff), had a great dinner and breakfast, and took the train back to our MH at the KOA. It was a most enjoyable trip. Cost: (campground, two first class train tickets, hotel, meals) about $450. While we were in Creel, we met a group going through the canyon with there rigs on flat cars. I believe there were about 15 motor homes. They had started in Chihuahua. As I recall, they said the trip was going to take 6 days. Spending that  much time in CC strapped to a flat car is not something I would enjoy. The caravan was in its second or third day, they had not gotten to the canyon yet so we did not get there reaction to it. Copper Canyon is an interesting place. I’m glad we went. For us, 2 days was plenty of time. And El Fuerte is a nice little town. I believe the caravans unload in Los Mochis. I have never been there. Email me if I can help. Ed Kipling – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thank you !!            HAPPY RAILS TO YOU                     CRICK

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GREETINGS Would love to hear from folks who have gone on these caravans where they put your  rig on a flatcar and take you  on the Copper Canyon railroad in Mexico. What caravan outfit did you use? How was the train ride? How long does it take? Any info you can share would be of great interest. Thank you !!            HAPPY RAILS TO YOU                     CRICK                    

Response:

Question:

1)  Is there a conversion for Reserve Capacity to Amp-hours?  Some deep

Not exactly. The Reserve  capacity is how many minutes the battery can supply 25 Amps until the cell voltage is 1.75 Volts or 10.5 Volts for a 12 Volt battery.

Correct.  So you can multiply 25amp * RCMinutes / 60 to get an amp-hour rating, EXCEPT!!! the normal amp-hour rating is computed over a 20 hour discharge.  If your RCMinutes is less than 20 hours, the real amp-hour rating will be somewhat higher. Note, that some specs list also a 75amp RC rating… 2)  What is the a prudent maximum level of amp draw from standard (RV) or industrial (golf cart) deep cycle flooded cell lead acid batteries?  It’s probably related to the amp-hour capacity.  I know that excessive draw will

It is. The deep cycle battery is capable of supplying 25 Amps until discharge with no ill effects.

Mostly right.  But the question was how much MAX, and for how long? Also, running to full discharge (10.5v of 12v) does wear out the battery.  You will get much better service life from the batts if you don’t discharge so deeply.  I prefer never below 11.0v, and rarely below 11.5v myself. sdb — IWant: Song of the South video — any digital format  *** An armed citizenry is our safety. More guns means less crime:  ISBN:0-226-49363-6  *** Watch out for munged e-mail address. User should be  sdbUse1  and host is  at  bigfoot.com Do NOT send me unsolicited commercial e-mail (UCE)!

Response:

Agreed, but the max amp draw certainly must be related to the battery size.

Somewhat. A group 24 won’t have the same max draw as a T105, for example.

Most likely true.  But would it be more or less? The issue is the cross-sectional area (physical size) of the current carrying conductors within the battery.  Too much current for their size and they overheat and warp or fuse.  That would be bad. A starter (S-L-I) battery of a particular size is safely able to source 100-200 amps for a time.  A deep cycle battery of the same physical size and voltage would be significantly more stressed.  Yet the deep cycle batt is almost certain to have a greater amp-hour capacity. So, is there a safe max amp draw that relates to the amp-hour rating?

I don’t think as a specific rule, but if comparing like types of batteries, you might be able to come up with something. The other issue is "for how long?" I think you need the manufacturers specs to be certain.  As a general rule of thumb, the recommendation is to limit charge current to a maximum of C/4h.  Since charging takes a relatively long time, I suspect treating the charge maximum as the sustained draw maximum would be safe. So for example, a 220Ah golf car battery would probably be safe for prolonged currents up to 55Amps.  Mine seem OK after short bursts of C. sdb — IWant: Song of the South video — any digital format  *** An armed citizenry is our safety. More guns means less crime:  ISBN:0-226-49363-6  *** Watch out for munged e-mail address. User should be  sdbUse1  and host is  at  bigfoot.com Do NOT send me unsolicited commercial e-mail (UCE)!

Response:

Agreed, but the max amp draw certainly must be related to the battery size. A group 24 won’t have the same max draw as a T105, for example. So, is there a safe max amp draw that relates to the amp-hour rating? Ken

Response:

2)  What is the a prudent maximum level of amp draw from standard (RV) or industrial (golf cart) deep cycle flooded cell lead acid batteries?  It’s probably related to the amp-hour capacity.  …..

Our PROwatt 800 modified sine wave inverter (Statpower brand) is about 90% efficient, and is rated for   *  800 watts continuous   *  900 watts for 30 minutes   *  1000 watts for 5 minutes   *  2000 watts surge The documentation says that the power leads should be 4 gauge cable, no longer than a few feet.  We’ve actually run hair dryers off of this thing for bursts of a few seconds.  When dry camping, we frequently run our microwave oven (500 watts output, but 750 watts input) for bursts a few minutes to heat meals or drinks or to pop popcorn off of this inverter.  The current drawn when we run our microwave oven is therefore roughly    watts / volts  =  ( 750 watts  /  0.90 efficiency)  /  12 volts                   =  69 amps Some documentation I read a few years ago (either the manual that came with the inverter or something somewhere on a website, I forget which) indicated that this inverter could be run off about a 200 amp-hour 12 volt battery, but not something like a 100 amp hour battery.  In other words, a single 12 volt 4D, or two group 27’s in parallel, or two golf cart batteries in series is OK, but a single group 24, group 27, or group 31 battery is NOT enough. BOTTOM LINE:  The above considerations say to me that a crude estimate of the maximum prudent battery drain IN AMPS is something on the order of 67/200, or 1/3 the amp-hour capacity of the battery.  In other words, don’t draw current much faster than at a 3-hour rate.         — Gerry         ‘99 Aliner, sofabed model w. electric brakes, electric water pump, dual 20 pound propane tanks, 6000 BTU A/C, 16,000 BTU propane furnace, large opening skylight over the sofabed, spare tire w. cover & bumper mounting bracket, 500 W microwave oven, porti potti         ‘98 Dodge Grand Caravan, 3.3L w. tow pkg. + automatic load levelers + custom "rv type" electrical system installed, including 210 amp-hour deep cycle AGM battery by Lifeline, 800 watt modified sine wave inverter by Statpower, and 3-stage 10-amp charger by Statpower.

Response:

1)  Is there a conversion for Reserve Capacity to Amp-hours?  Some deep cycle batteries are labeled with RC, not AH. 2)  What is the a prudent maximum level of amp draw from standard (RV) or industrial (golf cart) deep cycle flooded cell lead acid batteries?  It’s probably related to the amp-hour capacity.  I know that excessive draw will overheat and damage the batteries.

Ken, 1. The Reserve  capacity is how many minutes the battery can supply 25 Amps until the cell voltage is 1.75 Volts or 10.5 Volts for a 12 Volt battery. 2. The deep cycle battery is capable of supplying 25 Amps until discharge with no ill effects. I would suggest that you go to: http://bart.ccis.com/home/mnemeth/12volt/12volt.htm There is some good data there. Vince Wirth http://home.earthlink.net/~vincewirth

Response:

1)  Is there a conversion for Reserve Capacity to Amp-hours?  Some deep cycle batteries are labeled with RC, not AH. 2)  What is the a prudent maximum level of amp draw from standard (RV) or industrial (golf cart) deep cycle flooded cell lead acid batteries?  It’s probably related to the amp-hour capacity.  I know that excessive draw will overheat and damage the batteries. Ken

Response:

Question:

http://www.down-river.org/trpa/ How would you like to be camped by a clear gurgling stream, enjoying the river and the birds when suddenly a whole caravan of roaring, smoking, oil dripping vehicles came charging up the river bed? From what you’ve posted, it looks like laws are already in place to prevent vehicles from traveling up the river bed, because that is destructive behaviour. This looks like the problem is more one of enforcement in remote areas, which is always a challenge.

What I posted is standard river law across the U.S.  There is no such law in Texas at present.  An attempt was made to pass one last year and it failed.  That is why the Texas River Association asks people to contact the Texas legislature and urge passage. In Ohio there are similar laws that allow access to navigable waterways. Quite simply, people are free to boat on a navigable stream or river.

Pretty standard across the U.S.  What is NOT standard is allowing harmful use like Texas currently does, However, the river bottom can be privately owned, and if you are standing on it, (or driving)  you are trespassing and can be takin to court.

In Texas the state owns the river bottom and they are permitting destructive uses. Perhaps there is something similar in your state as well.

If people tried using river bottoms to drive their 4 wheelers in MN, they would be in jail.  "Navigable" applied to rivers means to use the water for transportation, not vehicles driving on the river bottom. LZ

Response:

http://www.down-river.org/trpa/ How would you like to be camped by a clear gurgling stream, enjoying the river and the birds when suddenly a whole caravan of roaring, smoking, oil dripping vehicles came charging up the river bed? This happened to us in Texas the past several years and I have to tell you the urge to take drastic action was strong.  Groups of modern day vandals have found loopholes in Texas strict trespassing laws and now use the state-owned riverbeds for 4 wheel recreation.  They have no regard for others, enjoy tormenting the landowners, tear up the riverbed, leave trash behind and prevent canoeists, tubers, fisherman and people wanting a quiet picnic or campsite from enjoying the river. Some excerpts from "River Law".       The three activities that the courts have traditionally mentioned are navigation, fishing, and commerce. But the       courts have ruled that any and all *******non-destructive       picnics, camping, walking, and other activities. The public can fish, from the river or from the shore below the       "ordinary high water line." (Note that the fish and wildlife are owned by the state in any case.) The public can       walk, roll a baby carriage, and other activities, according to court decisions.       18. What public activities can government agencies lawfully restrict?       They can and must prohibit or restrict activities that conflict with the Public Trust Doctrine. What is known as       "responsible recreation" must be allowed, but offensive or destructive activities can be limited to certain areas       or prohibited altogether. be limited or       prohibited as appropriate for the area.** So please contact the Texas State Legislature and insist that the Public Trust Doctrine be strictly enforced.  According to court precedent, only "non-destructive activities" are to be allowed.  The 4-wheeler’s activity is patently destructive. LZ

Response:

http://www.down-river.org/trpa/ How would you like to be camped by a clear gurgling stream, enjoying the river and the birds when suddenly a whole caravan of roaring, smoking, oil dripping vehicles came charging up the river bed?

From what you’ve posted, it looks like laws are already in place to prevent vehicles from traveling up the river bed, because that is destructive behaviour. This looks like the problem is more one of enforcement in remote areas, which is always a challenge. In Ohio there are similar laws that allow access to navigable waterways. Quite simply, people are free to boat on a navigable stream or river. However, the river bottom can be privately owned, and if you are standing on it, (or driving)  you are trespassing and can be takin to court. Perhaps there is something similar in your state as well.

Response:

Question:

"orpheus" <noem…@nowhere.com> wrote in message

news:juauauomnbo6janu2rqmud9g1s7pggbh11@4ax.com… > You’re correct on the first.  Knock-offs of the Range Rover. Highways > in the States are overrun by them–95% of which are driven by women > talking on cell phones.

LOL It’s an internatrional hazard, then. > If you should move to the States, you may be interested in getting > one. Here’s a page that may provide some useful links in picking out > the right one: > <http://autos.lycos.com/suv/default.asp>

Thanks. Actually, we have just ordered a new car but it’s a small liftback sedan.We’re unlikely to get an SUV unless we suddenly develop a taste for towing a caravan or taking off-road camping holidays. I think they’re crazy vehicles for city driving. And don’t get me started on roo(bull) bars! Tai

Response:

"orpheus" <noem…@nowhere.com> wrote in message

news:7basau08ocbep5guklaqphl0s6k1s3oioq@4ax.com… > > You post about the merits and deficiencies SUVs, say, and > > you’re likely to involve some big segment of a group. > So. > What are the merits and deficiencies of SUVs?

I’d love to give an opinion but first of all you need to tell me what an SUV is. I don’t think it’s a mini cooper….. not if soccer mums drive them. Is it a big gas-guzzling 4WD (off-road type vehicle) or a people-mover like a Chrysler Voyager or, perhaps, both? Tai (soccer and lacrosse mum)

Response:

In article <T3Ar8.1978$vc3.8…@news-server.bigpond.net.au>, "Tai" <tainu…@yahoo.com> wrote: > I’d love to give an opinion but first of all you need to tell me what an SUV > is.

Yeah, big 4WDs. On a road trip once, I started counting SUVs on the highway. Fully 1 car in 3 was an SUV of some kind, most with only one or two people in the car. Jenni

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Question:

I haven’t found any roof top carriers in Camping World or Campers Choice.  Any other place to look?  Also, will regular car top carriers work? Schef

Response:

I haven’t found any roof top carriers in Camping World or Campers Choice.  Any other place to look?  Also, will regular car top carriers work? Schef Hi, What kinda roof top are you looking to carry? Take Care and Happy Campin RichA "We Get To Soon Olde and To Late Smart"

I’ve got a roof top carrier. If I could get it off without destroying my roof you could have it. I took all the bolts out once, and pried and lifted and cussed, but it wouldn’t budge. I’m afraid if it did my roof would leak. For me it is a useless wind catcher. Tom

Response:

I haven’t found any roof top carriers in Camping World or Campers Choice.  Any other place to look?  …….

http://www.packasport.com/ We’ve had the largest luggage pod which Packasport makes on top of our Dodge Grand Caravan since summer 1998.  30.5 cubic feet.  We’re pleased with it.         — Gerry

Response:

Same here.  Mine gets in the way of pushing snow off the roof.  I would never carry anything up there and risk damaging the roof membrane. MR

could get it off without destroying – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – my roof you could have it. I took all the bolts out once, and pried and lifted and cussed, but it wouldn’t budge. I’m afraid if it did my roof would leak. For me it is a useless wind catcher. Tom

Response:

A friend that has been in the repair business for many years said to never put a carrier on top of any of my RV’s. He said they were always a prime source of roof leaks and rot, and in most cases the roof was not designed to carry the ’spot’ load. I for one will not drill any hole in a perfectly good roof. Bill

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I haven’t found any roof top carriers in Camping World or Campers Choice. Any other place to look?  Also, will regular car top carriers work? Schef

Response:

Question:

That isn’t what I saw at the car show. The car show tent looked like a two person back pack tent. Thanks for passing along the private email. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Here is the link that someone sent me: http://www.outbackproducts.net/boxtent.html The thing looks just like a pop-up trailor loaded onto the back of a truck. It appears to be roomier inside than our tent was, and I think there would be enough room inside for most of our stuff. I’m definitely going to check into this – I think it looks quite practical. Jo Anne

Response:

There is one that seems exactly what you are looking for. It is called the Truck Cabin from Aliner. See it at http://www.aliner.com/page21.html — Bill & Sharon Girls12 & 8, Big Boy 5 00 E-150, 02 Caravan 25 SLB, Michigan *Take out no spam, for address to work*

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have seen what you are describing but not for a compact truck. I imagine there would not be much floor space in such a model. Your truck is rated to tow 5000 lbs. Take the plunge and buy a good second hand hardtop. You won’t be dissapointed. They are easy to tow, have lots of space and comfort features. Good hardtops hold their resale value. Chris 1999 Coleman Bayside (For Sale by the way) 1997 Ford F150 My husband and I plan on taking some extended camping trips (alone – kids are gone) in future years, and we would like to purchase something a bit more substantial than a tent. We camped in a tent all the way from Toronto to Vancouver Island last summer, and it was fantastic, but then, it never rained on us for that whole month … We drive a new Nissan Frontier – medium sized pick-up truck. We wondered if there was such a thing as a pop-up truck camper. I kind of picture this as taking a pop-up and making it a size that will fit in the bed of a pick-up truck. It would be no bigger than a regular truck cap, when closed, but would unfold into something that, well, looks like a pop-up trailor. The "folding" truck campers that raise up at the top are not quite what we had in mind. They are still a bit taller than the truck. We’ve looked at pop-up trailors, but we don’t want to be towing anything. The reason why we are concerned with size is that we anticipate taking some expensive ferry trips (Newfoundland, BC coast, etc), and prices go up significantly if your "rig" is higher or longer than standard. Anybody heard of a camper that would meet our specifications? Many thanks, Jo Anne

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I also don’t want something with a big sticker price. We are retiring this year, and we need to be extra-frugal Also, we’ll only be out in the thing for about one month per year. If we were planning on doing a lot of travelling, we might get a camper van, but those things are *way* expensive! Someone emailed me with a link to a product called a "box tent". It is just about perfect, and I think I’ll start looking around for one. Thanks to everyone for the comments! Jo Anne

Here are some links to products you might find interesting. Some of these links may be dead.. I have not checked them in a while. I have owened a Flip-Pac for several years and am pretty happy with . . . Kurt Tent mounts on top of car, SUV or truck. Removable when not in use. Sky Dome – Outdoor Equipment 2427 Chilco Road Victoria, B.C. Canada. Ph: 250 478-3176 Fax: 250 478-8893. http://www.bimo.com/skydome1.htm Covers that fit over the tail/lift gate of trucks with shells, SUV’s etc. DAC Inc. 17399 Cline Dr. Maurepas, LA. 70449 (800) 242-6612 or (504) 698-6208 http://www.eatel.net/~dacinc/trucks.html Cab-height shell, folds open over cab Flip-Pac Campers (Distributor) Six-Pac Industries, Inc. 1428 E. 6th Street Corona, CA 91719 (909) 737-8232  FAX: (909) 737-5807  —-or—- (Manufacturer) Flip-Pac 12350 DoHerty Street Riverside, CA 92503 800-327-5836 Phone 909-371-7197, Fax 909-371-1320 http://www.flippac.com/flippac.htm A rugged pop-up for 4×4 vehicles.  Also available as a shell with no built-ins. Four-Wheel Campers 350 Pioneer Avenue Woodland, CA 95776 1-800-242-1442  FAX: (530) 666-1486 http://www.fourwheelcampers.com/ A hinge-up pickup camper. hinges at front, back lifts up for headroom. Roamin’ Chariot Industries 3342 East Trent Avenue Spokane, WA 99202 Tel: (509) 535-9634 or (888) 535-9634 http://rominchariot.uswestdex.com/ Fits on top of truck bed, opens like a tent-trailer Outback Products P O Box 1447 Depoe Bay, Oregon

Question:

It was last month. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Kay wrote: > Hi All, > Please could you tell me about Thanksgiving? What is a typical meal on this > day? Similar to Christmas dinner? When I call my American family, do I just > say ‘Happy thanksgiving’? Just checking the protocol, formalities and all > that! Am I to understand correctly that it is generally celebrated by > uniting families for a big pig-out? > Thanks, > Kay > (in my frosty, windy English village) > ~|__   Warning! Invalid thought process! > ( o )_ Shut down body and reboot brain > (IF I WERE A RAT I’D BE CURED BY NOW!)

– Eliz. ^^^^^ http://www.tomraelodge.com/loon.wav

Response:

On Wed, 21 Nov 2001 21:44:54 -0000, "Kay" <ukfo…@hotmail.com> wrote: }Am I to understand correctly that it is generally celebrated by }uniting families for a big pig-out?

Or a big turkey-out? Sorry, Old Uncle Steve made me say it. — Joan Elizabeth! Are you quilting???

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picky picky picky — God bless America, God save the Queen, God defend New Zealand and ….. thank Christ for Australia! ~ Russell Crowe ~ "cocobunny" <cocobu…@shaw.ca> wrote in message

news:3BFC6B51.F34B690F@shaw.ca… It was last month. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Kay wrote: > Hi All, > Please could you tell me about Thanksgiving? What is a typical meal on this > day? Similar to Christmas dinner? When I call my American family, do I just > say ‘Happy thanksgiving’? Just checking the protocol, formalities and all > that! Am I to understand correctly that it is generally celebrated by > uniting families for a big pig-out? > Thanks, > Kay > (in my frosty, windy English village) > ~|__   Warning! Invalid thought process! > ( o )_ Shut down body and reboot brain > (IF I WERE A RAT I’D BE CURED BY NOW!)

– Eliz. ^^^^^ http://www.tomraelodge.com/loon.wav

Response:

Hi Kay, I am just returning from my annual jaunt to my hometown for the traditional Thanksgiving meal. By traditional I mean we never diverge from the same foods—never—not since I was a child: Turkey   Cornbread Dressing/stuffing Green beans ( as we have all gotten older and less picky, the beans are now freshly steamed and then sauteed w/ butter, garlic and parsley) Squash Casserole w/ water chestnuts Sweet Potato Casserole Wild Rice Fresh cranberries w/ orange bits and brandy Giblet Gravy Rolls Ambrosia Egg Custard Pie And yes….we eat and eat and eat til we roll away from the table:) We generally go around the table and name something we are thankful for and then retire to the fireplace hearth for music and chats Each year we try to invite a family or another couple who would otherwise be alone for the holidays and include them in the festivities Of all the holidays…it is my favorite….not just the food, but the fellowship and family. Rhonda

Response:

How lovely! A time when we are thankful for the blessings we do have, to wish a Happy Thanksgiving is perfectly appropriate protocol. And yes, it’s a big ol’ family pig-out in our family, except we eat pig at Easter time and eat turkey at Thanksgiving time. Indulge me a moment: I wrote this a couple of years ago as a genealogy project, an editorial of sorts to explain how our Germanic ancestors came to this country (long after the landing at Plymouth Rock) — How that must have been, nearly 270 years ago: imagine the irrationality of leaving your village to travel hundreds of miles to a foreign place, with its foreign language and habits — sometimes walking, or riding by horseback and caravan if you’re lucky. There will be endless hours aboard a crowded scow, traveling the Rhine to Rotterdam. You eventually arrive in the sophisticated city of London where the industrial revolution runs full steam ahead. There you await the privilege of boarding a ship to go to the legendary America. It holds the promise of a better life, according to the stories you’ve heard. But in those days how could one really know the truth of such stories? You might wait for that passage while camping on the side of the road or in a field with scores of people who are hoping for the same chance, or owing to the prosperity of a few spare coins, you snatch available space in a rooming house. Clearly, you will not partake of tea with King George II. The locals and others are either annoyed by your presence or eagerly make attempts to steal what precious little you own, probably both. From the odor you emit to the guttural language you speak to the chaos caused by the combined thousands of immigrants who have come without invitation, you are wholly unwelcome in this transitory place. And from fellow travelers you are pounded by stories and rumors that spew like soot from the towering smoke stacks. In what can you believe but your own instinct? To survive, merciless vigilance rules your every waking moment. Once aboard ship, you will spend weeks in an utterly alien world. There comes a brilliant moment of claustrophobic realization that you have traded the familiarity of mountains, valleys and vineyards, however tired and war-ravaged, for an unrelenting sea, a thoroughly unnatural place for humans to dwell. You have traded the comparative comfort of solid ground to live on shifting waters in cramped quarters with bad food and phantom weather, and no appreciable way to visualize what the future holds. Now imagine enduring this special hell with your children. What sort of misery, bravery and desperate strength would compel a soul to choose such an incredible voyage? The years of war, hunger and religious persecution you’ve already suffered at the hands of tax collectors, priests and Lords of the land may end here, but it will end with hope. It is from the choices our ancestors made that we exist at all. — That’s what Thanksgiving means to me. Best regards, Meg www.livergood.net "Kay" <ukfo…@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:3bfc218d$1_3@news2.vip.uk.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi All, > Please could you tell me about Thanksgiving? What is a typical meal on this > day? Similar to Christmas dinner? When I call my American family, do I just > say ‘Happy thanksgiving’? Just checking the protocol, formalities and all > that! Am I to understand correctly that it is generally celebrated by > uniting families for a big pig-out? > Thanks, > Kay > (in my frosty, windy English village) > ~|__   Warning! Invalid thought process! > ( o )_ Shut down body and reboot brain > (IF I WERE A RAT I’D BE CURED BY NOW!)

Response:

Kay…thanksgiving is simular to christmas dinner but usually friends and family gather around the table and take turns saying what they are thankful for.   it is a celebration handed down from our Pilgrim fathers and their meeting with the American Indian [ Native Americans ]  how they came together and made a feast and ate together. well their is a lot more to it but you get the idea. yes just call your family and say " Happy Thanksgiving"  when you finally get to live here you will  understand the whole thing. and Kay…hope you got my personel e-mail to you [ think about what I said please ]  let me know how things go. Joyce….oh and Happy Thanksgiving !!!!! "Kay" <ukfo…@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:3bfc218d$1_3@news2.vip.uk.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi All, > Please could you tell me about Thanksgiving? What is a typical meal on this > day? Similar to Christmas dinner? When I call my American family, do I just > say ‘Happy thanksgiving’? Just checking the protocol, formalities and all > that! Am I to understand correctly that it is generally celebrated by > uniting families for a big pig-out? > Thanks, > Kay > (in my frosty, windy English village) > ~|__   Warning! Invalid thought process! > ( o )_ Shut down body and reboot brain > (IF I WERE A RAT I’D BE CURED BY NOW!)

Response:

Hi All, Please could you tell me about Thanksgiving? What is a typical meal on this day? Similar to Christmas dinner? When I call my American family, do I just say ‘Happy thanksgiving’? Just checking the protocol, formalities and all that! Am I to understand correctly that it is generally celebrated by uniting families for a big pig-out? Thanks, Kay (in my frosty, windy English village) ~|__   Warning! Invalid thought process! ( o )_ Shut down body and reboot brain (IF I WERE A RAT I’D BE CURED BY NOW!)

Response: