Question:

Being the Seinfeld fan that I am, I came across a seller that is offering every episode on DVD. In fact, I am finding quite a few DVD’s of TV shows on ebay that I cannot find through Amazon or anywhere else. Is there some underground network out there making home cooked DVD’s? OK, I am not that naive to assume that there isn’t but that is a lot of work to transfer every episode to DVD. here’s the link: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5574874673 Any thoughts on this? Ken

According to www.imdb.com they have seasons 1-3 on DVD [R1] And the Sony website (below) has seasons 1-4 listed http://search.atomz.com/search/?sp-a=sp1001eac9&sp-k=Home+Entertainme… Like you, I can see no sign of Seinfeld DVD’s on the sites that sell DVD’s … so an assumption that they are copied. Why not ask the guy? As for quality … well, that it going to depend on how he’s ripped them, what he ripped them to and how he’s created the DVD’s. There’s a lot of questions to be asked if you’re expecting top notch quality. Suggest that you be quick … if they are pirates, then eBay will pull them off, if they see them.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Being the Seinfeld fan that I am, I came across a seller that is offering every episode on DVD. In fact, I am finding quite a few DVD’s of TV shows on ebay that I cannot find through Amazon or anywhere else. Is there some underground network out there making home cooked DVD’s? OK, I am not that naive to assume that there isn’t but that is a lot of work to transfer every episode to DVD. here’s the link: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5574874673 Any thoughts on this? Ken According to www.imdb.com they have seasons 1-3 on DVD [R1] And the Sony website (below) has seasons 1-4 listed http://search.atomz.com/search/?sp-a=sp1001eac9&sp-k=Home+Entertainme… Like you, I can see no sign of Seinfeld DVD’s on the sites that sell DVD’s … so an assumption that they are copied. Why not ask the guy? As for quality … well, that it going to depend on how he’s ripped them, what he ripped them to and how he’s created the DVD’s. There’s a lot of questions to be asked if you’re expecting top notch quality. Suggest that you be quick … if they are pirates, then eBay will pull them off, if they see them.

Much cheaper to rent the real ones. http://www.netflix.com/Search?v1=seinfeld&search_submit.x=27&search_s… — Many thanks, Don Lancaster Synergetics   3860 West First Street  Box 809  Thatcher, AZ 85552 Please visit my GURU’s LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Being the Seinfeld fan that I am, I came across a seller that is offering every episode on DVD. In fact, I am finding quite a few DVD’s of TV shows on ebay that I cannot find through Amazon or anywhere else. Is there some underground network out there making home cooked DVD’s? OK, I am not that naive to assume that there isn’t but that is a lot of work to transfer every episode to DVD. here’s the link: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5574874673 Any thoughts on this? Ken According to www.imdb.com they have seasons 1-3 on DVD [R1] And the Sony website (below) has seasons 1-4 listed http://search.atomz.com/search/?sp-a=sp1001eac9&sp-k=Home+Entertainme… Like you, I can see no sign of Seinfeld DVD’s on the sites that sell DVD’s … so an assumption that they are copied. Why not ask the guy? As for quality … well, that it going to depend on how he’s ripped them, what he ripped them to and how he’s created the DVD’s. There’s a lot of questions to be asked if you’re expecting top notch quality. Suggest that you be quick … if they are pirates, then eBay will pull them off, if they see them.

To be honest, I was an eager noob wanting to get all the new theatrical release movie bootlegs I could when I first got a DVD player. But after a while the novelty wore off when I realized for the price I was paying the picture & sound quality was terrible and that I looked forward to the extras on the legitimately manufactured & released movie DVDs. I still have one for a keepsake, a grainy copy where you can see the heads of the people sitting a couple of rows ahead of the cameraperson, smoking and talking (an Asian language I imagine) during the movie… Good for a few laughs… Matty

Response:

Being the Seinfeld fan that I am, I came across a seller that is offering every episode on DVD. In fact, I am finding quite a few DVD’s of TV shows on ebay that I cannot find through Amazon or anywhere else. Is there some underground network out there making home cooked DVD’s? OK, I am not that naive to assume that there isn’t but that is a lot of work to transfer every episode to DVD. here’s the link: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5574874673 Any thoughts on this? Ken

I go to about three different flea markets, several times a year for each. Don’t buy much, but like to browse. I recall in the late 1990’s a ton of poorly packaged bootleg VHS and cassettes. I can remember 2000-2001 a ton of bootleg CD-Rs, with magic marker hand written "labels". In 2002 it completely vanished. I’m not sure what happened. Obviously people still bootleg. To this day, at these flea markets have no bootleg media. Garmets and accessories, probably, but I’m not sure. There was a time I bought a leather Buxton wallet for $10 that was the exact same thing I saw in outlet stores for $25… Two years later the wallet is shot. I didn’t expect that. Perhaps it is bogus.

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looks like ebay removed the listing. Ken

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There is also the underground network scenario… where a bunch of people get together and divide-up the work… so each one just has to make one DVD master… then they all pool together to dupe them so they all have a full set.  Doing it that way, if you had enough people it might not take that long… but the quality isn’t going to be that good. Why wouldn’t the quality be that good? If they are DVR recordings to DIVX rips…. You’d have to assume that the person doing the rips knows what he/she is doing… and takes time to properly edit out the commercials without cutting into the show. Also consider that most shows in syndication are edited from their original network airing, so stuff is probably missing unless these were recorded from the original airing years ago. Then you have to figure they know how to use their software to transfer from the DVR to the computer and not screw it up with overcompression to fit on the DVD… and probably the menus they put on the DVD will not look professional unless they are just really bored, and good of course at it. And certainly, no "extras" will be there… like deleted scenes or interviews or commentary, that sort of thing usually on a real release… The label on the DVD (if there even is one) is probably not going to look that good, given limitations of most home-user label-creation software & hardware. Not advocating bootlegs at all here… BUT, if they were bootleg copies of released DVD sets from the studios they stand a lot better chance of being of decent quality than if they are complete home-brew DVDs, and we know that must be the case because only the first 3 seasons have been officially released so far, though season 4 is due in a few weeks so early leaks of copies are possible at this point. Bootleg quality is notoriously low… not necessarily because it has to be… but because most folks into the bootlegging simply don’t care and it isn’t worth the time to make it quality anyway. -Stewart http://www.indenter.com/comics

That reminds me of the Seinfeld episode where Jerry was forced to bootleg the movie, ‘Death Blow’… He mentioned to someone all the comments he overheard kids giving a street seller, asking if there were any other movies with the same quality as the ‘Death Blow’ bootleg…. Matty

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Being the Seinfeld fan that I am, I came across a seller that is offering every episode on DVD. In fact, I am finding quite a few DVD’s of TV shows on ebay that I cannot find through Amazon or anywhere else. Is there some underground network out there making home cooked DVD’s? OK, I am not that naive to assume that there isn’t but that is a lot of work to transfer every episode to DVD. here’s the link: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5574874673 Any thoughts on this? Ken I’m guessing they are very low quality MPEG format pirated episodes. And look at the auctions where the seller obtained their feedback. I wouldn’t trust anyone who does that. jim menning Just been looking at his purchases. 1 ebook – How To Get 100 Feedback In A Week 1 ebook – Make Your Own Flea Treatments 1 ebook – 100 Feedback In 7 Days 1 eRecipe – Tender Pork Strips 1 eBook – Camping And Outdoor Recipes So, the seller is a pork-eating fat b&&&*** with fleas, of insufficient brain to figure out, for himself, how to build good feedback. Would you buy from this seller? ;) — Remove underwear when emailing me.

Plus look at all the spelling mistakes, more than an eBay spoof !!! fq

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Being the Seinfeld fan that I am, I came across a seller that is offering every episode on DVD. In fact, I am finding quite a few DVD’s of TV shows on ebay that I cannot find through Amazon or anywhere else. Is there some underground network out there making home cooked DVD’s? OK, I am not that naive to assume that there isn’t but that is a lot of work to transfer every episode to DVD. here’s the link: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5574874673 Any thoughts on this? Ken I’m guessing they are very low quality MPEG format pirated episodes. And look at the auctions where the seller obtained their feedback.  I wouldn’t trust anyone who does that. jim menning

Just been looking at his purchases. 1 ebook – How To Get 100 Feedback In A Week 1 ebook – Make Your Own Flea Treatments 1 ebook – 100 Feedback In 7 Days 1 eRecipe – Tender Pork Strips 1 eBook – Camping And Outdoor Recipes So, the seller is a pork-eating fat b&&&*** with fleas, of insufficient brain to figure out, for himself, how to build good feedback. Would you buy from this seller? ;) — Remove underwear when emailing me.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Being the Seinfeld fan that I am, I came across a seller that is offering every episode on DVD. In fact, I am finding quite a few DVD’s of TV shows on ebay that I cannot find through Amazon or anywhere else. Is there some underground network out there making home cooked DVD’s? OK, I am not that naive to assume that there isn’t but that is a lot of work to transfer every episode to DVD. here’s the link: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5574874673 Any thoughts on this? Ken

I’m guessing they are very low quality MPEG format pirated episodes. And look at the auctions where the seller obtained their feedback.  I wouldn’t trust anyone who does that. jim menning

Response:

Being the Seinfeld fan that I am, I came across a seller that is offering every episode on DVD. In fact, I am finding quite a few DVD’s of TV shows on ebay that I cannot find through Amazon or anywhere else. Is there some underground network out there making home cooked DVD’s? OK, I am not that naive to assume that there isn’t but that is a lot of work to transfer every episode to DVD. here’s the link: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5574874673 Any thoughts on this?

I believe it is a scam. There is no picture, the high bidders IDs are private, and the price is ridiculously cheap compared to the true retail for the separate seasons. These bootleggers are all over e-Bay, but usually, they are registered in Hong Kong… mjoann

Response:

Being the Seinfeld fan that I am, I came across a seller that is offering every episode on DVD. In fact, I am finding quite a few DVD’s of TV shows on ebay that I cannot find through Amazon or anywhere else. Is there some underground network out there making home cooked DVD’s? OK, I am not that naive to assume that there isn’t but that is a lot of work to transfer every episode to DVD. here’s the link: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5574874673 Any thoughts on this? Ken

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Question:

In news:cmsuhtl98mcw$.dlg@123hotbox.ru, Vilma <v…@hotbox.ru> wrote : > I’m pleased for youand glad you’re happy.

    thanks. > Sure you’ll make a nice girl > smile.

    :)

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> I even fantasize about it, and the more I >> "indulge" in my masochistic tendencies, the more I hate myself, and the >more >> I hate myself, the more I have to punish myself (= doing masochistic >> things).

    Why even try to change? I’m not able to prevent the ever increasing submissive fantasies. My latest one is kissing and licking the shoes of the last girl who rejected me a few months ago.     She is such a snob and even though she basically told me to leave her alone and to stop talking to her the last time we spoke, I keep fantasizing about spending money on her and buying her jewelry, fur coats, expensive dresses, etc..     I have the fantasy of her wearing the new fur coat I bought for her while I’m sitting on the floor licking and kissing her shoes like a worthless nothing. Then she invites her friends over and makes me strip and they all take turns laughing at the small size of my cock.

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On 29 Nov 2004 02:26:49 GMT, jimsummer…@aol.com (Jim Summers87) wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> I even fantasize about it, and the more I >>> "indulge" in my masochistic tendencies, the more I hate myself, and the >>> more I hate myself, the more I have to punish myself (= doing masochistic >>> things). >    Why even try to change? I’m not able to prevent the ever increasing >submissive fantasies. My latest one is kissing and licking the shoes of the >last girl who rejected me a few months ago. >    She is such a snob and even though she basically told me to leave her alone >and to stop talking to her the last time we spoke, I keep fantasizing about >spending money on her and buying her jewelry, fur coats, expensive dresses, >etc.. >    I have the fantasy of her wearing the new fur coat I bought for her while >I’m sitting on the floor licking and kissing her shoes like a worthless >nothing. Then she invites her friends over and makes me strip and they all take >turns laughing at the small size of my cock.

Is there anything in your life that makes you happy? Solitary Soul -> http://users3.ev1.net/~solitarysoul/ —————————————————– Welcome to alt.support.shyness, also known as The *PAIN* Club.                                        - Solitary Soul

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On 29 Nov 2004 02:26:49 GMT, jimsummer…@aol.com (Jim Summers87) wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> I even fantasize about it, and the more I >>> "indulge" in my masochistic tendencies, the more I hate myself, and the >>more >>> I hate myself, the more I have to punish myself (= doing masochistic >>> things). >    Why even try to change? I’m not able to prevent the ever increasing >submissive fantasies. My latest one is kissing and licking the shoes of the >last girl who rejected me a few months ago. >    She is such a snob and even though she basically told me to leave her alone >and to stop talking to her the last time we spoke, I keep fantasizing about >spending money on her and buying her jewelry, fur coats, expensive dresses, >etc.. >    I have the fantasy of her wearing the new fur coat I bought for her while >I’m sitting on the floor licking and kissing her shoes like a worthless >nothing. Then she invites her friends over and makes me strip and they all take >turns laughing at the small size of my cock.

Why don’t you buy her a fur coat and ask her to act out your fantasy in exchange? Most women’d do it for free. I think what you need is a tweaker who’ll do it in exchange for more meth. You could make it yourself and she’ll be even more enthusiastic when high.

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>How did you lose them?

   You know how on your website you mentioned loving the rock band "Queen"?    Well I used to really love that classic rock stuff from the 60’s and 70’s but then one day my feelings for it were gone. I was much more alive back then. >What would it take to get them back?

     At this point it would probably require medication. I’ve noticed that I feel so much better on the spice Nutmeg. I wish they sold it in pill form. >Have you ever thought of getting more friends (guys to hang with)? > … getting into sports?

     I don’t have the energy. Lately I’m only getting about 3 hours of sleep each night.

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Jim wrote: >  I wish I could learn to like something but most of my feelings for life are >gone.

What about nature?  Hiking in the mountains or camping on an ocean beach brings me joy. You live in Georgia, you’re a couple hours from both the Smokey Moutains & the Atlantic Ocean . . . you should give nature a try. Read "A Walk in the Woods" by Bill Bryson to give you a taste of the outdoor life. It’s a humour book, not some pedantic tree-hugger tome: http://tinyurl.com/6r2mt -rainier

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On 30 Nov 2004 04:16:17 GMT, jimsummer…@aol.com (Jim Summers87) wrote: >>Do you wish to share my fate, Jim? >  I wish I could learn to like something but most of my feelings for life are >gone.

How did you lose them? What would it take to get them back? Have you ever thought of getting more friends (guys to hang with)?  … getting into sports? Solitary Soul -> http://users3.ev1.net/~solitarysoul/ —————————————————– In my experience, there is no excuse for thinking positively.                                           – ASStagon

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On 30 Nov 2004 05:15:13 GMT, glacierpk…@aol.com (Rainier) wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Jim wrote: >>  I wish I could learn to like something but most of my feelings for life are >>gone. >What about nature?  Hiking in the mountains or camping on an ocean beach brings >me joy. >You live in Georgia, you’re a couple hours from both the Smokey Moutains & the >Atlantic Ocean . . . you should give nature a try. >Read "A Walk in the Woods" by Bill Bryson to give you a taste of the outdoor >life. It’s a humour book, not some pedantic tree-hugger tome: >http://tinyurl.com/6r2mt >-rainier

Actually, this is a good idea. Solitary Soul -> http://users3.ev1.net/~solitarysoul/ —————————————————– In my experience, there is no excuse for thinking positively.                                           – ASStagon

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>dude, i think all of that jerking off is unhealthy.  no joke. >i mean, twice a DAY at LEAST?  cripes.

Most guys I guess might jerk off atleast once a day, 2 is no biggie. I do about 2 on weekdays…more on weekends. Its good workout for the body and brain…trying to imagine hot porn in your head and jerking …multi-tasking ? LOL

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In news:20041129230445.08198.00001648@mb-m04.aol.com, kitznegari thinks it has wings <kitzneg…@aol.com> typed: > dude, i think all of that jerking off is unhealthy.  no joke. > i mean, twice a DAY at LEAST?  cripes. > – k i t z –

    Find the evidence. I mean sure, if it’s chaffing him or something, that’s one thing. August Pamplona — The waterfall in Java is not wet. – omegazero2003 on m.f.w. a.a. # 1811 apatriot #20 Eater of smut Proud member of the reality-based community. The address in this message’s ‘From’ field, in accordance with individual.net’s TOS, is real. However, almost all messages reaching this address are deleted without human intervention. In other words, if you e-mail me there, I will not receive your message. To make sure that e-mail messages actually reach me, make sure that my e-mail address is not hot.

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In news:20041129231842.08032.00001379@mb-m07.aol.com, DudeNEPhx1971 <dudenephx1…@aol.com> typed: >> dude, i think all of that jerking off is unhealthy.  no joke. >> i mean, twice a DAY at LEAST?  cripes. > Most guys I guess might jerk off atleast once a day, 2 is no biggie.

    Twice is time to worry if something is wrong. But I suppose one can be healthy even at those lower masturbatory frequencies. > I do about 2 on weekdays…more on weekends. Its good workout for the > body and brain…trying to imagine hot porn in your head and jerking > …multi-tasking ? LOL

August Pamplona — The waterfall in Java is not wet. – omegazero2003 on m.f.w. a.a. # 1811 apatriot #20 Eater of smut Proud member of the reality-based community. The address in this message’s ‘From’ field, in accordance with individual.net’s TOS, is real. However, almost all messages reaching this address are deleted without human intervention. In other words, if you e-mail me there, I will not receive your message. To make sure that e-mail messages actually reach me, make sure that my e-mail address is not hot.

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>Do you wish to share my fate, Jim?

  I wish I could learn to like something but most of my feelings for life are gone.

Response:

In news:8ZWdnQA0G7sbXjfcRVn-gw@comcast.com, Dolores <weaselpant…@sinmonkey.com> wrote : – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> F r a.n.k. wrote: > -snip- > >     Now I want to have a nice gf. And I feel motivated to look for > > one. :) > >     I mean, this is not the 1st time I’ve managed to defeat > > masochism, but it’s really rare once the self-loathing process is > > started. So now I feel quite happy and proud. Proud of being a boy, > > who’s nice, and happy to have won another battle against masochism. > > And managing to escape the vicious circle of self-loathing is a > > relief too. > This is AWESOME, Frank! I’m feeling really happy for you right now, > because this is probably the best thing I’ve read on ASS ever! :) You > are a good boy, a good person, and definitely deserving of a good > girlfriend and a healthy sex-life complete with self-respect. Good > for you!

    Thank you Lola. Thanks for caring for me! :)  That really means a lot to me.

Response:

On 29 Nov 2004 03:36:48 GMT, jimsummer…@aol.com (Jim Summers87) wrote: >>Is there anything in your life that makes you happy? >  Just posting here and collecting pictures of beautiful women.

Jim, you need to get a life … seriously. Once again, for those of you who missed it: Life is about having fun, and relationships are about having fun with other people. Jim, if you were to ever get a girl to go out on a date with you, where would you take her? As for myself: I wouldn’t have a clue. I don’t like to dance, I don’t like to hang out in bars, I care nothing about movies, no interest in symphonies, no interest in plays/theater, don’t care about fine dining (Jack-in-the-Box and Luby’s cafeteria get most of my business)  - a woman would have to be a real weirdo to enjoy being with me  - a weirdo myself  - which is why I’ll probably die alone. Do you wish to share my fate, Jim? Solitary Soul -> http://users3.ev1.net/~solitarysoul/ —————————————————– There are no rules when it comes to love – only anarchy prevails.                                        - Solitary Soul

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dude, i think all of that jerking off is unhealthy.  no joke. i mean, twice a DAY at LEAST?  cripes. – k i t z – the queen of alt.support.shyness all of the minions are obsessed!

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>On 29 Nov 2004 03:36:48 GMT, jimsummer…@aol.com (Jim Summers87) wrote: >>>Is there anything in your life that makes you happy? >>  Just posting here and collecting pictures of beautiful women. >Jim, you need to get a life … seriously. >Once again, for those of you who missed it: Life is about having fun, >and relationships are about having fun with other people. >Jim, if you were to ever get a girl to go out on a date with you, >where would you take her?

  Its not about the place, its about the company, spending time together. You can just go for a walk and chat and enjoy nature and still have a good time. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->As for myself: I wouldn’t have a clue. > I don’t like to dance, I don’t >like to hang out in bars, I care nothing about movies, no interest >in symphonies, no interest in plays/theater, don’t care about fine dining >(Jack-in-the-Box and Luby’s cafeteria get most of my business) > – a woman would have to be a real weirdo to enjoy being with me > – a weirdo myself > – which is why I’ll probably die alone. >Do you wish to share my fate, Jim?

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F r a.n.k. wrote:

-snip- >     Now I want to have a nice gf. And I feel motivated to look for one. :) >     I mean, this is not the 1st time I’ve managed to defeat masochism, but > it’s really rare once the self-loathing process is started. So now I feel > quite happy and proud. Proud of being a boy, who’s nice, and happy to have > won another battle against masochism. And managing to escape the vicious > circle of self-loathing is a relief too.

This is AWESOME, Frank! I’m feeling really happy for you right now, because this is probably the best thing I’ve read on ASS ever! :) You are a good boy, a good person, and definitely deserving of a good girlfriend and a healthy sex-life complete with self-respect. Good for you! -=Lola

Response:

In news:6cc08168bde81200d29ff2f74dd096a6@localhost.talkaboutsupport.com, Rainier <rainierba…@hotmail.com> wrote : > Golddiggers I can tolerate. Part of me can rationalize it’s me they > like, not my money. But whores are just dirty scum. I hate ‘em. I > kicked her out. Then I sat in the room and cried myself to sleep.

    aww :(  You know, it’s not great either when you have not much money. You’re sure that the girl likes you for you, but often there is no girl at all.

Response:

In news:20041128212649.06537.00001069@mb-m15.aol.com, Jim Summers87 <jimsummer…@aol.com> wrote : > > I even fantasize about it, and the more I > > > "indulge" in my masochistic tendencies, the more I hate myself, > > > and the more I hate myself, the more I have to punish myself (= > > > doing masochistic things). >     Why even try to change?

    Because masochism makes you unhappy?     If you have money I couldn’t recommend more psychoanalysis. It seems to work for me.

Response:

In news:d89077d8.0411282214.6669e2f1@posting.google.com, helen~ <helens_pi…@yahoo.com> wrote : – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "F r a.n.k." <f…@mail.net> wrote in message > <news:30v2raF332e84U1@uni-berlin.de>… > > I’ve spent the weekend with some members of my family. In my little > > flat. No place to hide. No place for masturbation. Usually, after > > such weekends, I have a very big sex-drive (masturbating less than > > twice a day is unusual…). Plus the fact that such weekends are > > like orgasm denial, but for real, not in fantasy. And I really get > > off on orgasm denial. > >     So when the people have gone, the plan was to download dozens > > of p0rn videos, without watching them first (save file to disk), > > and then watching them all, being denied the right to touch myself, > > but as I’m not a real man, I would finally cum in my pants without > > even touching myself (which is possible for me, heh… :-/ ) > >     But when I started it, I felt the plan was not ridiculous > > enough. So I’ve been looking for even better ideas. > >     Oh, btw, for a few months I’ve been in a constant struggle > > against my masochistic pulsions, with lots of successes, and a few > > drawbacks. For example one day I erased all the pictures and videos > > of girls looking superior and snotty and domineering from my hard > > drive. Like this one, for example : > >     http://www.ngebokep.com/tgp/metart/discovery/index175.html > >     But tonight it was a bad day, complete defeat… Submission to > > the same old fantasies… And I mean, ok, laugh at me, call me > > pervert, or coward for not having the courage to fight my pulsions, > > but you know, EVERYONE who masturbates will think about the most > > arousing thing for them. I mean, masturbation = fun, not duty or > > homework. I mean it’s REALLY hard to try to rule over your > > pulsions… Fortunately I only have passive pulsions so the only > > one who can get hurt in the process is myself. The worst thing I’ve > > been about to do, once, was to leave a message on a "dominatrix" ’s > > answerphone (appointment), I had seen her website, her fees and > > all, and you know, when you really NEED to be punished… (I > > haven’t called but it was written that the answerphone was always > > on) > >     So I mean it’s fucking hard to try to change what you like (for > > example try to force yourself to like Rod Stewart if you’ve always > > thought it sounded and tasted like shit). Similarly, you can’t > > really tell yourself "tonight, during masturbation, I’m gonna be a > > wise man", because I mean, anyone who masturbates will mostly get > > off on things which feel forbidden, or dirty and everything. I > > mean, the fun of sex is all about doing things which feel a bit > > dirty and all, isn’t it? > >     But I know that masochism doesn’t make me happy. Actually it > > makes me feel like shit. And (still more) ashamed of myself (if > > possible). So if I wanted to stop the masochistic masturbation then > > I’d need to do it to protect myself, I’d need to do it out of > > respect for me. But the problem is that really often I hate myself > > (no self-respect AT ALL) and I really feel like I deserve to be > > punished. > >     So actually I think that the only thing which could stop a > > masochistic masturbation is someone who would call me and tell me > > that I’m a good person, worthy of love and all… > & ruin everything? guilt, torment, & delicious forbidden orgasms? all > for what? mere convention?

    It’s not only my sex life. I’m a masochist and people pleaser all the time (except when I’m doing nothing all day). And it really doesn’t make me feel happy. The other day I was walking in the street looking at the beautiful girls, and fantasizing about the fact that I’m denied the "right" to sleep with any of them. The only pleasure of that is that not having sex at all makes me feel less guilty for being a man. But I think that guilt can be reduced with something else than punishment. Lately I’ve known a few experiences of pleasure without guilt and without pain, and damn, that really feels great. It made me feel happy, and whole, and at peace with myself. I really feel that fantasizing about being loved feels better than fantasizing about being humiliated.     btw, are you a masochist, or a female sadist trying to convince me to remain a (male) masochist? > > the more I hate myself, and the more I hate myself, the more I have > > to punish myself (= doing masochistic things). > sounds like strong orgasm material…

    orgasms are stronger without masochism

Response:

Jim wrote: > I keep fantasizing about > spending money on her and buying her jewelry, fur coats, > expensive

dresses, I lived your fantasy. Remember the hot black chick I dated? I did nothing but spend money on her. We’d go out to fancy restaurants two or three times a week. I bought her Hennesey cognac, marijuana, anything she wanted. It made things easier for me. I didn’t have to worry about clever conversation or acting masculine. All she wanted was my money, which is something I HAD plenty of. I didn’t even want sex. Being seen with a beautiful woman was excitement enough. But she got greedy. She suggested we get a hotel room for Valentine’s Day. First she gave me the whore line about not liking to kiss. Then she put all her cards on the table and told me if I wanted to fuck she expected some "favors" in return. Golddiggers I can tolerate. Part of me can rationalize it’s me they like, not my money. But whores are just dirty scum. I hate ‘em. I kicked her out. Then I sat in the room and cried myself to sleep. -rainier

Response:

>Is there anything in your life that makes you happy?

  Just posting here and collecting pictures of beautiful women.

Response:

Jim wrote: > Just posting here and collecting pictures of beautiful  > women.

I’m the same way. I called Gloria, the Yahoo Personals Girl today. During our entire conversation I kept thinking to myself: "What a waste!  I could be on a.s.s. right now." Perhaps this is what rock bottom feels like. I would rather have strangers on the internet call me ugly than talk to a real-life person. I guess I’m more like you and Frank than I thought. -rainier

Response:

On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 23:47:57 +0100, F r a.n.k. sayeth: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->     I’ve spent the weekend with some members of my family. In my little > flat. No place to hide. No place for masturbation. Usually, after such > weekends, I have a very big sex-drive (masturbating less than twice a day is > unusual…). Plus the fact that such weekends are like orgasm denial, but > for real, not in fantasy. And I really get off on orgasm denial. >     So when the people have gone, the plan was to download dozens of p0rn > videos, without watching them first (save file to disk), and then watching > them all, being denied the right to touch myself, but as I’m not a real man, > I would finally cum in my pants without even touching myself (which is > possible for me, heh… :-/ ) >     But when I started it, I felt the plan was not ridiculous enough. So > I’ve been looking for even better ideas. >     Oh, btw, for a few months I’ve been in a constant struggle against my > masochistic pulsions, with lots of successes, and a few drawbacks. For > example one day I erased all the pictures and videos of girls looking > superior and snotty and domineering from my hard drive. Like this one, for > example : >     http://www.ngebokep.com/tgp/metart/discovery/index175.html >     But tonight it was a bad day, complete defeat… Submission to the same > old fantasies… And I mean, ok, laugh at me, call me pervert, or coward for > not having the courage to fight my pulsions, but you know, EVERYONE who > masturbates will think about the most arousing thing for them. I mean, > masturbation = fun, not duty or homework. I mean it’s REALLY hard to try to > rule over your pulsions… Fortunately I only have passive pulsions so the > only one who can get hurt in the process is myself. The worst thing I’ve > been about to do, once, was to leave a message on a "dominatrix" ’s > answerphone (appointment), I had seen her website, her fees and all, and you > know, when you really NEED to be punished… (I haven’t called but it was > written that the answerphone was always on) >     So I mean it’s fucking hard to try to change what you like (for example > try to force yourself to like Rod Stewart if you’ve always thought it > sounded and tasted like shit). Similarly, you can’t really tell yourself > "tonight, during masturbation, I’m gonna be a wise man", because I mean, > anyone who masturbates will mostly get off on things which feel forbidden, > or dirty and everything. I mean, the fun of sex is all about doing things > which feel a bit dirty and all, isn’t it? >     But I know that masochism doesn’t make me happy. Actually it makes me > feel like shit. And (still more) ashamed of myself (if possible). So if I > wanted to stop the masochistic masturbation then I’d need to do it to > protect myself, I’d need to do it out of respect for me. But the problem is > that really often I hate myself (no self-respect AT ALL) and I really feel > like I deserve to be punished. >     So actually I think that the only thing which could stop a masochistic > masturbation is someone who would call me and tell me that I’m a good > person, worthy of love and all… Else, it’s a neverending vicious circle, I > feel like shit, have done nothing all day, hate myself, feel horny, look at > girls looking snotty, feel inferior to them, remember that I’m a failure in > bed (pre mat ure ejaculati0n), I even fantasize about it, and the more I > "indulge" in my masochistic tendencies, the more I hate myself, and the more > I hate myself, the more I have to punish myself (= doing masochistic > things). >     So really, I don’t know how tonight the process has stopped. I know that > I’ve made a break (a masturbation with orgasm denial can last quite long, if > you see what I mean…), and then something happened in my head…. Like a > stroke of self-respect, or something. I had saved on my hard drive my reply > to Lola about deserving or not deserving to be punished for being a man [ > with her quoted reassuring message ;) ]. And then yeah, I told myself that > there was nothing wrong with being a boy. I mean, I still can not feel proud > of being a man (or feel ok with being a man), but being a *boy* sounds > acceptable for me. All the more that I’m nice. So I felt that I could feel > proud of being a nice boy, after all. No need to hate myself and punish > myself. >     Then I looked at the undressed snotty girls again, and I thought > "WTF??". Or even better, WON’T YOU GET THE FUCK OUT OF MY FACE!?! (which (I > mean the song "Good God" from Korn) has become for some time now my > anti-masochism anthem). Then I thought that my own idea of sex was rather > holding the hands of my gf, and enjoying this moment where I’m having lots > of pleasure, and her too. So I started touching myself (I hadn’t touched > myself at all until then), and I started trying to give myself pleasure, and > I fantasized about making love with a nice gf. This felt good. :)  (it feels > good to feel and enjoy the physical pleasure, for once, instead of the > intellectual pleasure (and pain) of humiliation) >     Now I want to have a nice gf. And I feel motivated to look for one. :) >     I mean, this is not the 1st time I’ve managed to defeat masochism, but > it’s really rare once the self-loathing process is started. So now I feel > quite happy and proud. Proud of being a boy, who’s nice, and happy to have > won another battle against masochism. And managing to escape the vicious > circle of self-loathing is a relief too.

I’m pleased for youand glad you’re happy. Sure you’ll make a nice girl smile.

Response:

    I’ve spent the weekend with some members of my family. In my little flat. No place to hide. No place for masturbation. Usually, after such weekends, I have a very big sex-drive (masturbating less than twice a day is unusual…). Plus the fact that such weekends are like orgasm denial, but for real, not in fantasy. And I really get off on orgasm denial.     So when the people have gone, the plan was to download dozens of p0rn videos, without watching them first (save file to disk), and then watching them all, being denied the right to touch myself, but as I’m not a real man, I would finally cum in my pants without even touching myself (which is possible for me, heh… :-/ )     But when I started it, I felt the plan was not ridiculous enough. So I’ve been looking for even better ideas.     Oh, btw, for a few months I’ve been in a constant struggle against my masochistic pulsions, with lots of successes, and a few drawbacks. For example one day I erased all the pictures and videos of girls looking superior and snotty and domineering from my hard drive. Like this one, for example :     http://www.ngebokep.com/tgp/metart/discovery/index175.html     But tonight it was a bad day, complete defeat… Submission to the same old fantasies… And I mean, ok, laugh at me, call me pervert, or coward for not having the courage to fight my pulsions, but you know, EVERYONE who masturbates will think about the most arousing thing for them. I mean, masturbation = fun, not duty or homework. I mean it’s REALLY hard to try to rule over your pulsions… Fortunately I only have passive pulsions so the only one who can get hurt in the process is myself. The worst thing I’ve been about to do, once, was to leave a message on a "dominatrix" ’s answerphone (appointment), I had seen her website, her fees and all, and you know, when you really NEED to be punished… (I haven’t called but it was written that the answerphone was always on)     So I mean it’s fucking hard to try to change what you like (for example try to force yourself to like Rod Stewart if you’ve always thought it sounded and tasted like shit). Similarly, you can’t really tell yourself "tonight, during masturbation, I’m gonna be a wise man", because I mean, anyone who masturbates will mostly get off on things which feel forbidden, or dirty and everything. I mean, the fun of sex is all about doing things which feel a bit dirty and all, isn’t it?     But I know that masochism doesn’t make me happy. Actually it makes me feel like shit. And (still more) ashamed of myself (if possible). So if I wanted to stop the masochistic masturbation then I’d need to do it to protect myself, I’d need to do it out of respect for me. But the problem is that really often I hate myself (no self-respect AT ALL) and I really feel like I deserve to be punished.     So actually I think that the only thing which could stop a masochistic masturbation is someone who would call me and tell me that I’m a good person, worthy of love and all… Else, it’s a neverending vicious circle, I feel like shit, have done nothing all day, hate myself, feel horny, look at girls looking snotty, feel inferior to them, remember that I’m a failure in bed (pre mat ure ejaculati0n), I even fantasize about it, and the more I "indulge" in my masochistic tendencies, the more I hate myself, and the more I hate myself, the more I have to punish myself (= doing masochistic things).     So really, I don’t know how tonight the process has stopped. I know that I’ve made a break (a masturbation with orgasm denial can last quite long, if you see what I mean…), and then something happened in my head…. Like a stroke of self-respect, or something. I had saved on my hard drive my reply to Lola about deserving or not deserving to be punished for being a man [ with her quoted reassuring message ;) ]. And then yeah, I told myself that there was nothing wrong with being a boy. I mean, I still can not feel proud of being a man (or feel ok with being a man), but being a *boy* sounds acceptable for me. All the more that I’m nice. So I felt that I could feel proud of being a nice boy, after all. No need to hate myself and punish myself.     Then I looked at the undressed snotty girls again, and I thought "WTF??". Or even better, WON’T YOU GET THE FUCK OUT OF MY FACE!?! (which (I mean the song "Good God" from Korn) has become for some time now my anti-masochism anthem). Then I thought that my own idea of sex was rather holding the hands of my gf, and enjoying this moment where I’m having lots of pleasure, and her too. So I started touching myself (I hadn’t touched myself at all until then), and I started trying to give myself pleasure, and I fantasized about making love with a nice gf. This felt good. :)  (it feels good to feel and enjoy the physical pleasure, for once, instead of the intellectual pleasure (and pain) of humiliation)     Now I want to have a nice gf. And I feel motivated to look for one. :)     I mean, this is not the 1st time I’ve managed to defeat masochism, but it’s really rare once the self-loathing process is started. So now I feel quite happy and proud. Proud of being a boy, who’s nice, and happy to have won another battle against masochism. And managing to escape the vicious circle of self-loathing is a relief too. —   I’m gonna get free   I’m gonna get free   I’m gonna get free     The Vines, Get Free.

Response:

Question:

Blah.. Blah…I am the greatest…. Christianity is the best….. Jesus is the only son……repeat repeat

Liju was deliberately being both dishonest and nasty, after I took the time and trouble to respond. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – tsk, tsk, didn’t we touch some raw nerve?  I gathered that much from the first few lines. I give  rat’s ass for your ramblings.  I am not giving you any satisfaction by reading the drivel you wrote.    Your reward is that you let some hot air out.  If I want to know about something I go to the best source and you are not the one.

Response:

Blah.. Blah…I am the greatest…. Christianity is the best….. Jesus is the only son……repeat repeat

tsk, tsk, didn’t we touch some raw nerve?  I gathered that much from the first few lines. I give  rat’s ass for your ramblings.  I am not giving you any satisfaction by reading the drivel you wrote.    Your reward is that you let some hot air out.  If I want to know about something I go to the best source and you are not the one.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

tsk, tsk, didn’t we touch some raw nerve?  I gathered that much from the first few lines. I give  rat’s ass for your ramblings.  

What "ramblings", you dishonest, lying piece of shit?                                                           I am not giving you any satisfaction by reading the drivel you wrote.

What "drivel", you dishonest, lyiung piece of shit?                                                            Your reward is that you let some hot air out.  

What "hot air", you dishonest, lying piece of shit?                                          If I want to know about something I go to the best source and you are not the one.

Translation: I, K.C.Liju am a lying troll who posts falsehoods about atheists and lies yet again as an excuse not to address responses. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

tsk, tsk, didn’t we touch some raw nerve?  I gathered that much from the first few lines. I give  rat’s ass for your ramblings.  I am not giving you any satisfaction by reading the drivel you wrote.    Your reward is that you let some hot air out.  If I want to know about something I go to the best source and you are not the one. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

Nope. Theists are people who believe  in things they call gods. There are thousands of different god-beliefs out there. Those with one of these beliefs are called Christians, and seem to imagine that the rest of the world revolves around their particular deity-belief. Indeed there are thousands of beliefs among the so-called "theists". Not only Christians believe in God, but people of every religion believe in God.  That may upset you.  

Why do you dishonestly pretend people believing things upsets me? Their actions towards me may or may not upset me. But you seem unable to grasp the difference? Just as you are incapable of reading for comprehension instead of twisting what you are told, to turn it into something you can ignore or dismiss. Why do you pretend you still can’t grasp the difference between the inside-your-religion meaning "God" and all the different meanings outside it? Why do you pretend that Hindus, Sikhs, Ancient Greeks, the Norse etc all believe(d) what you do? Hint: They believe(d) SOMETHING. Just as you believe SOMETHING. But these SOMETHINGS are different. AND FROM OUTSIDE THEY’RE ALL MERELY "WHAT SOMEBODY ELSE BELIEVES". Including yours. That wasn’t so hard to understand was it? Even for you?                              The word "revolve" gets good use in your writing.  

Do you have a better word? Or are you just being silly? Their beliefs are supremely important to them. But neither you nor they understand that they are incidental to anybody outside their religion. Just "somebody else’s religion" that isn’t even part of us. What part of "God [in the meaning you use inside your religion] isn’t part of the atheist paradigm at all" are you still pretending you don’t understand?                  If you are not convinced about certain beliefs of others, religious or otherwise, you reject those beliefs.

I’m not rejecting anything. You seem to have difficulty understanding that there is nothing to reject. I would have to be inside their/your religious paradigm to do that.                                                         That should end the problem for you.

You’re the one with the problem, not I. The one who can’t grasp that there is a real world outside his religion where his doctrinal presumptions etc don’t even apply for exactly the same reason a Wahabbi Muslim’s don’t apply to you.                         I am yet to see an atheist who by "reasoning" has convinced me of his position.

Because you refuse to let atheists have the position they actually do. Because you want them to support a strawman. Because you  invent things that aren’t correct about atheists. Because when they correct you, you filter the response through your bigoted ignorance.                                  I don’t try to convince others of my beliefs and convictions.  

I never said you did.                            If asked I answer what I believe and why I believe.  

And what if they ask you to defend your position that Jesus was the bastard son of Mary by John the Baptist? Just as you demand atheists support beliefs they don’t have. You ignore it when they take the time and trouble to explain that it isn’t a belief but the absence of the theists’ belief. You ignore it when they tell you that there is no symmetry between theism and atheism, You ignore it when they tell you that the very premises you use to invent positions we don’t have, and through which you filter explanations through, don’t even apply in the real world outside the theists’ religion.           I am sure there are few things in this world that have to be experienced to know.

What the heck has this got to do with what your refusal to let atheists be what we actually are? Or with your refusal to acknowledge that what is real to you inside the virtual reality of your religion, is merely "somebody else’s religious belief"? So they invent positions for everybody else based on premises that don’t even apply to them, rudely tell the rest of us what our position "really:" is and then even more rudely tell use why it’s unreasonable. I agree, they shouldn’t tell you anything unless you ask about something. They shouldn’t be rude about it either.

That’s not what I said. And I was talking about you. I said they (and you) invent positions atheists we don’t have, and insist that we do. Because they (and you) can’t grasp what they (and you) are told, WHICH WE WOULDN’T NEED TO DO IF YOU HADN’T GOT US WRONG IN THE FIRST PLACE because our actual position can’t even exist in their (and your) restricted worldview. So they (and you) twist explanations to fit their (and your) bigoted ignorance. See below. 2.  Atheists:   They are sure that there is no God.  How are they sure?   They throw the ball to the court of the theists and ask them to prove the existence of God.   If they cannot prove to the satisfaction of the atheists, that is proof enough for them that there is no God.  They are asked (rhetorically) whether they can expect to discover the creator of the laws through the same laws? Stupid, ignorant bullshit. Now who is being rude and using abusive language?

You don’t seem to understand just how rude and abusive you were yourself. And given your record I doubt you ever will, but here’s a clue: YOU DON’T GET TO TELL US WHAT OUR POSITION IS. We get to tell you. And you have to accept that it actually is our position even if you’re too self-centred to understand it. Any attempt to "prove" we’re wrong is arrogant, disrespectful and just plain nasty because it implies we’re not telling the  truth about ourselves. Get that beam out of your own eye before accusing us of "rude and abusive language". When we explain why we don’t have the position you imagine we do, and why we have nothing to defend, YOU SHOULD LISTEN. AND TAKE NOTICE OF THIS instead of trying to "refute" it. WE ARE DESCRIBING OURSELVES. Here is a clear definition of atheism and its ramifications for life given by Etienne Borne:

Never heard  of him. What do you pretend makes him an expert on atheists and what qualifies him to tell us what our position is? "Atheism is the deliberate, definite, dogmatic denial of the existence of God.  It is not satisfied with appropriate truth, but claims to see ins and outs of the game quite clearly being the absolute denial of the absolute".

He was lying. Period. And it tells us plenty about YOU that you refuse to let us have the positions we actually do, and come up with some bigoted liar we have never heard of before, to tell us that our position is what he says. Do you honestly not understand just how nasty this is? What are the views of Madalyn Murray O’Hair the Godmother of atheists?

What "Godmother of atheists", moron? Atheists are individuals. Nobody tells us what to believe or not to believe. There is no atheist leader laying down any atheist doctrine. No atheist catechism that gets repeated until we believe it, etc. Here it is in her own words: " We atheists….try to find some basis of rational thinking on which we can base our actions and our beliefs….There are no supernatural entities such as gods, or heavens, or hells, or life after death.  There are no supernatural forces, nor can there be. We atheists believe that nature simply exists.  Matter is. Material is".

And there’s no Santa Claus either. What’s your point? You still don’t understand what is remarkably obvious: GODS/HEAVENS/HELLS/LIFE AFTER DEATH ETC ARE MERELY OTHER PEOPLE’S MYTHS. The hard-of-thinking can’t grasp that. Something stops them realising that people outside their religion see their most cherished belief in the same light you see Zeus and all the god-BELIEFS that are simply fairy stories to you. Atheists are people who aren’t theist. That’s all. We would have nothing to say about your deity-belief if you kept it to yourself and didn’t invent positions about it that we don’t have. When you realise that outside your religion, your deity is merely somebody else’s irrelevant religious belief, then you won’t make such an in-your-face idiot of yourself next time. Who is talking about any deity?  

That is central to your self-imposed ignorance. The deity you call "God" is merely one thousands of deity-BELIEFS. Whose belief objects are only relevant to their believers. ATHEISTS DON’T BELIEVE IN ANY OF THEM, AND HAVE NO REASON TO TREAT ONE OF THEM (YOURS) ANY DIFFERENTLY FROM ALL THE OTHERS. THAY ARE *A*L*L* "SOMEBODY’S RELIGIOUS BELIEF".   Why do you pretend we should treat yours differently from all the others?                                 Show me where I brought in that as part of the discussion.  

It’s centra; to your mistake, moron.                        Theism pertains to God, and if an atheist is

No, moron, it means believing in any deity. Not just your one. But you are too self-centred to understand this. Julius Caesar was theist. He believed in a whole slew of gods that you don’t: Jupiter, Mercury, Venus, etc. Hindus are theists: they believe in Krishna, Rama, Vishnu, etc. That wasn’t so hard, was it? defined as "not being theist" I can understand it.  I thought atheists have come a long way where they can define themselves positively rather than in negative terms.  

1. Because you still stupidly invent positions we don’t have. 2. Because you nastily insist that we are what we aren’t. 3. Because you are too stupid to understand that the premises and presumptions you do this from, don’t even apply to us. WE’VE GOT NOTHING TO DEFEND. Listen too explanations why not, instead of being so rude. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –                                That also tells that their entire arguments may fall apart if they have to argue their case in positive terms as clearly shown by the shallowness in

… read more »

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – by Steve Jordahl, correspondent They want plenty of God’s creation for kids?they just don’t want God Himself. There’s swimming, horseback riding, hiking?and a class on the myth of God. Welcome to Camp Quest, a summer camp for atheists and free-thinkers. Now in two states and hoping to expand, Camp Quest draws a few kids each year and indoctrinates them on defending their lack of faith. You misspelled "teaches them logic and critical thinking". "Misspelling" has an entirely different meaning. You could have said misinterpreted their purpose. My veiw of the subject(s) is as follows: People may be categorized into four groups according to the convictions/beliefs they have about God. They are: Nope. Theists who imagine  the world revolves round  their deity and are to ignorant to grasp that it doesn’t, like to imagine that.

You say they don’t grasp. May be they are too ignorant to grasp what you say!  But you are wise enough to figure out what they imagine! 1. Theists.  They believe  in God  through conviction that usually involve personal experience, and attribute supernatural  power in  the creation and sustenance of every thing.  They say that science can explain physical phenomena only in terms of existing physical laws. It (science) remains mute and will always remain so when it comes to explaining the origin and existence of these laws. Nope. Theists are people who believe  in things they call gods. There are thousands of different god-beliefs out there. Those with one of these beliefs are called Christians, and seem to imagine that the rest of the world revolves around their particular deity-belief.

Indeed there are thousands of beliefs among the so-called "theists". Not only Christians believe in God, but people of every religion believe in God.  That may upset you.  The word "revolve" gets good use in your writing.  If you are not convinced about certain beliefs of others, religious or otherwise, you reject those beliefs.  That should end the problem for you. I am yet to see an atheist who by "reasoning" has convinced me of his position.  I don’t try to convince others of my beliefs and convictions.  If asked I answer what I believe and why I believe.   I am sure there are few things in this world that have to be experienced to know. So they invent positions for everybody else based on premises that don’t even apply to them, rudely tell the rest of us what our position "really:" is and then even more rudely tell use why it’s unreasonable.

I agree, they shouldn’t tell you anything unless you ask about something. They shouldn’t be rude about it either. See below. 2.  Atheists:   They are sure that there is no God.  How are they sure?   They throw the ball to the court of the theists and ask them to prove the existence of God.   If they cannot prove to the satisfaction of the atheists, that is proof enough for them that there is no God.  They are asked (rhetorically) whether they can expect to discover the creator of the laws through the same laws? Stupid, ignorant bullshit.

Now who is being rude and using abusive language?  Here is a clear definition of atheism and its ramifications for life given by Etienne Borne: "Atheism is the deliberate, definite, dogmatic denial of the existence of God.  It is not satisfied with appropriate truth, but claims to see ins and outs of the game quite clearly being the absolute denial of the absolute". What are the views of Madalyn Murray O’Hair the Godmother of atheists?  Here it is in her own words: " We atheists….try to find some basis of rational thinking on which we can base our actions and our beliefs….There are no supernatural entities such as gods, or heavens, or hells, or life after death.  There are no supernatural forces, nor can there be. We atheists believe that nature simply exists.  Matter is. Material is". Atheists are people who aren’t theist. That’s all. We would have nothing to say about your deity-belief if you kept it to yourself and didn’t invent positions about it that we don’t have. When you realise that outside your religion, your deity is merely somebody else’s irrelevant religious belief, then you won’t make such an in-your-face idiot of yourself next time.

Who is talking about any deity?  Show me where I brought in that as part of the discussion.  Theism pertains to God, and if an atheist is defined as "not being theist" I can understand it.  I thought atheists have come a long way where they can define themselves positively rather than in negative terms.  That also tells that their entire arguments may fall apart if they have to argue their case in positive terms as clearly shown by the shallowness in Madam O’Hare’s articulation. 3. Anti-theists:  Most of the atheists I encountered could be called anti-theists.   Something in them compels them to reject God, and are willing to embrace any argument that denies the existence of God. They seem to hope to avoid the prick of the conscious and in some cases they want to appear to others as rational intelligent people who are not under the control of any religion. Do you honestly imagine that lying about us, to our faces, is going to convince us of anything? Other than what it tells us about you, which isn’t particularly flattering.

The word "anti-theist" is not my invention; it is used very heavily in pertaining literature. You must be aware of that.  Why do you think I am trying to convince you of anything?  If you want to refute anything I said there is a way to do it, but not the way you said above. 4. Agnostics: They are fairly honest people, and they don’t know whether there is a God or not and don’t make any claim to have experienced God.   They admit that they cannot explain various phenomena such as creation, maintenance etc with the knowledge they have.  So to the big questions their answer is "I don’t know". You misrepresent both atheists and agnostics: an atheist is somebody who isn’t theist. An agnostic is somebody who holds that knowledge about certain things cannot be obtained. Neither start from your god-premise that only applies inside the virtual reality of your religion.

I wonder how the agnostics came to the conclusion that knowledge about certain things cannot be obtained.  What are those "certain things"? Hint: we’re in the real world now. Where you believe something that the rest of us wouldn’t give a flying fuck about if you kept it to yourself.

I know that you don’t care; neither do I care about your views.  Don’t you think that you should take your own advice keep your opinion to yourself and to your peers? "God" is something that Christians and other creator-monotheists believe in, as part of their religious paradigm. In the real world, all it is, is a religious belief. It’s not even part of the atheist paradigm to have the positions about it that you pretend we do.

All religions are God centered.  Christians and the monotheists do not have a monopoly in having belief in God which ahteists dismiss as superstition. I thought you figured out that by now. Most atheists haven’t got anything to be agnostic about. It’s not rocket sciecne. But then you’re no rocket scientist.

You don’t know what I am.  So don’t jump to conclusion that hastily.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – by Steve Jordahl, correspondent They want plenty of God’s creation for kids?they just don’t want God Himself. There’s swimming, horseback riding, hiking?and a class on the myth of God. Welcome to Camp Quest, a summer camp for atheists and free-thinkers. Now in two states and hoping to expand, Camp Quest draws a few kids each year and indoctrinates them on defending their lack of faith. You misspelled "teaches them logic and critical thinking". "Misspelling" has an entirely different meaning. You could have said misinterpreted their purpose. My veiw of the subject(s) is as follows: People may be categorized into four groups according to the convictions/beliefs they have about God. They are:

Nope. Theists who imagine  the world revolves round  their deity and are to ignorant to grasp that it doesn’t, like to imagine that. 1. Theists.  They believe  in God  through conviction that usually involve personal experience, and attribute supernatural  power in  the creation and sustenance of every thing.  They say that science can explain physical phenomena only in terms of existing physical laws. It (science) remains mute and will always remain so when it comes to explaining the origin and existence of these laws.

Nope. Theists are people who believe  in things they call gods. There are thousands of different god-beliefs out there. Those with one of these beliefs are called Christians, and seem to imagine that the rest of the world revolves around their particular deity-belief. So they invent positions for everybody else based on premises that don’t even apply to them, rudely tell the rest of us what our position "really:" is and then even more rudely tell use why it’s unreasonable. See below. 2.  Atheists:   They are sure that there is no God.  How are they sure?   They throw the ball to the court of the theists and ask them to prove the existence of God.   If they cannot prove to the satisfaction of the atheists, that is proof enough for them that there is no God.  They are asked (rhetorically) whether they can expect to discover the creator of the laws through the same laws?

Stupid, ignorant bullshit. Atheists are people who aren’t theist. That’s all. We would have nothing to say about your deity-belief if you kept it to yourself and didn’t invent positions about it that we don’t have. When you realise that outside your religion, your deity is merely somebody else’s irrelevant religious belief, then you won’t make such an in-your-face idiot of yourself next time. 3. Anti-theists:  Most of the atheists I encountered could be called anti-theists.   Something in them compels them to reject God, and are willing to embrace any argument that denies the existence of God. They seem to hope to avoid the prick of the conscious and in some cases they want to appear to others as rational intelligent people who are not under the control of any religion.

Do you honestly imagine that lying about us, to our faces, is going to convince us of anything? Other than what it tells us about you, which isn’t particularly flattering. 4. Agnostics: They are fairly honest people, and they don’t know whether there is a God or not and don’t make any claim to have experienced God.   They admit that they cannot explain various phenomena such as creation, maintenance etc with the knowledge they have.  So to the big questions their answer is "I don’t know".

You misrepresent both atheists and agnostics: an atheist is somebody who isn’t theist. An agnostic is somebody who holds that knowledge about certain things cannot be obtained. Neither start from your god-premise that only applies inside the virtual reality of your religion. Hint: we’re in the real world now. Where you believe something that the rest of us wouldn’t give a flying fuck about if you kept it to yourself. "God" is something that Christians and other creator-monotheists believe in, as part of their religious paradigm. In the real world, all it is, is a religious belief. It’s not even part of the atheist paradigm to have the positions about it that you pretend we do. Most atheists haven’t got anything to be agnostic about. It’s not rocket sciecne. But then you’re no rocket scientist.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – by Steve Jordahl, correspondent They want plenty of God’s creation for kids?they just don’t want God Himself. There’s swimming, horseback riding, hiking?and a class on the myth of God. Welcome to Camp Quest, a summer camp for atheists and free-thinkers. Now in two states and hoping to expand, Camp Quest draws a few kids each year and indoctrinates them on defending their lack of faith. You misspelled "teaches them logic and critical thinking". "Misspelling" has an entirely different meaning.

Not to be uncharitable, but you either haven’t been on Usenet for very long, or you need to learn to recognize sarcasm.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – by Steve Jordahl, correspondent They want plenty of God’s creation for kids?they just don’t want God Himself. There’s swimming, horseback riding, hiking?and a class on the myth of God. Welcome to Camp Quest, a summer camp for atheists and free-thinkers. Now in two states and hoping to expand, Camp Quest draws a few kids each year and indoctrinates them on defending their lack of faith. You misspelled "teaches them logic and critical thinking".

"Misspelling" has an entirely different meaning. You could have said misinterpreted their purpose.  My veiw of the subject(s) is as follows: People may be categorized into four groups according to the convictions/beliefs they have about God. They are: 1. Theists.  They believe  in God  through conviction that usually involve personal experience, and attribute supernatural  power in  the creation and sustenance of every thing.  They say that science can explain physical phenomena only in terms of existing physical laws. It (science) remains mute and will always remain so when it comes to explaining the origin and existence of these laws. 2.  Atheists:   They are sure that there is no God.  How are they sure?   They throw the ball to the court of the theists and ask them to prove the existence of God.   If they cannot prove to the satisfaction of the atheists, that is proof enough for them that there is no God.  They are asked (rhetorically) whether they can expect to discover the creator of the laws through the same laws? 3. Anti-theists:  Most of the atheists I encountered could be called anti-theists.   Something in them compels them to reject God, and are willing to embrace any argument that denies the existence of God. They seem to hope to avoid the prick of the conscious and in some cases they want to appear to others as rational intelligent people who are not under the control of any religion. 4. Agnostics: They are fairly honest people, and they don’t know whether there is a God or not and don’t make any claim to have experienced God.   They admit that they cannot explain various phenomena such as creation, maintenance etc with the knowledge they have.  So to the big questions their answer is "I don’t know".

Response:

Where are these "20 compelling evidences that God exists"? I’ve yet see one piece of objective evidence that a god exists. — Bill

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – by Steve Jordahl, correspondent They want plenty of God’s creation for kids

Question:

>I plan on rigging >battery on small hand truck, or inside old wheeled flight bag with >vent.   Max use per workweek would be four, four hour periods. >Average will probably be three, four hour periods. >Using Remstar pro, which I’m told should be fused at 3 amps slow blow. >Passover humidity. >Ideas, suggestions requested.. Is 16 hours on one charge going to be >pushing it for small deep cycle? Or would  it be better for smaller >deep cycle and more frequent recharges?

First, determine (via the manual) if your Remstar blower can pulg directly into 12 volt DC.  I suspect yes, since you asked about making your own DC cord to save $35.  The current model Remstar Pro can plug directly into 12 volt DC.  If you can do this, you can ignore all previous well intended advice concerning inverters.  Inverters add cost, weight, and bulk to the package, and they also eat battery power due to terribly inefficient power conversion.   I would also ignore the well intended advice from the individual that suggested the unterruptable power supply that is marketed for computer use.  It contains an inverter, so you can plug your 120 volt AC computer components directly into it, and it is a rather high capacity inverter compared to your needs, if you even need one.  The batteries in the uninterruptable power supply probably don’t have the capacity you need unless you buy a huge one. Deep cycle marine batteries look like car batteries.  You can get a much more travel friendly version of this, a jump start battery, at any auto parts store or large discount store such as Wal-Mart.  They have molded in carry handles and cigarette lighter style plug sockets, and they have gel rather than liquid acid inside, so they are pretty rugged and leakproof.  Some come with inverters built in; again, determine if you need that feature, since it adds cost, bulk, and weight.  A typical jump start battery powered my old cpap, with an inverter, for only 6-8 hours.  The exact same jump start battery powers my new cpap, which can plug directly into 12 volt DC, for 24-28 hours before requiring charging.  They cost about US$50-70. I have been using jump start batteries (with and without inverters) to power my various cpap blowers for more than 5 years, through at least 50 nights of Boy Scout camping trips.  The first jump start battery I bought 5 years ago just stopped holding a charge about 6 months ago, so figure it has been charged way more than 50 times (I also use it for other things).  I think you will find this a satisfactory solution for your intended application, based on weekly recharges after 12-16 hours of use (without an inverter). If you can recharge more frequently, you could go to a smaller jump start battery.  Considering the advantages of using cpap when you travel on an every week basis, if the jump start batttery only lasts year or two under such heavy use, it would still be worth it.   Terry

Response:

Tlbliss wrote:

 > > I have been using jump start batteries (with and without inverters) to power my > various cpap blowers for more than 5 years, through at least 50 nights of Boy > Scout camping trips.  The first jump start battery I bought 5 years ago just > stopped holding a charge about 6 months ago, so figure it has been charged way > more than 50 times (I also use it for other things).  I think you will find > this a satisfactory solution for your intended application, based on weekly > recharges after 12-16 hours of use (without an inverter). If you can recharge > more frequently, you could go to a smaller jump start battery.  Considering the > advantages of using cpap when you travel on an every week basis, if the jump > start batttery only lasts year or two under such heavy use, it would still be > worth it.  

Also note that in order to gain the longest life from your lead-acid battery, you shouldn’t go for maximum discharge!  Recharge frequently, if possible, before you take the voltage down too far.  Also recharge as soon as possible rather than letting it sit in a discharged or partially discharge state.

Response:

>I wish there was an easy way to remove the "jumper cables" though..

Since I don’t need these connections, I have also considered removing them, to avoid the potential of shorting them accidentally, and to reduce weight and stop them from catching on things.  If you determine that it is doable, please post the results here.  I have even considered just cutting them off flush witht he case.   Terry

Response:

On 30 Aug 2004 11:37:22 GMT, tlbl…@aol.com (Tlbliss) wrote: >>I wish there was an easy way to remove the "jumper cables" though.. >Since I don’t need these connections, I have also considered removing them, to >avoid the potential of shorting them accidentally, and to reduce weight and >stop them from catching on things.  If you determine that it is doable, please >post the results here.  I have even considered just cutting them off flush >witht he case.   >Terry

Will do.. I’ll have to look into it.. but according to manual with unit… power isn’t supplied to cables until it reads small amount of voltage present.  Keeps you from hooking the two cables together or hooking up to car battery backwards..   I’ll have to look into the cable issue… maybe cutting them off and covering end of cable with a little epoxy, grinding or sawing off plastic tab that they store the clamps on.. Chuck

Response:

On 30 Aug 2004 03:38:31 GMT, tlbl…@aol.com (Tlbliss) wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>Terry >>How do they size the jumpstart batteries? AmpHour ratings like car >>batteries? >>What size do you have? >>Chuck >Truth is, the literature that comes with them is very evasive on that point. >My current jumpstart battery is an EverStart Maxx Jump Starter, Model HP450-2. >It claims to have "up to 500 amp starting power," which I would take as a >maximum instantaneous current flow, which would not be sustained very long. >This is in keeping with its original function as a jump start battery for cars, >where maximum cranking amps is about all that counts.  Inside the manual it >lists its capacity as 18 amp/hour, but I don’t believe that info was on the >outside of the package.  Weight is 19 lbs.   >Probably the most useful info from the cpap user’s standpoint is the table in >the battery’s manual that lists the estimated run time for gadgets of various >wattages. Mine lists: >30 hours for 5 watts >21 hours for 10 watts >12 hours for 15 watts >3 hours for 45 watts >1.5 hours for 80 watts >1 hour for 135 watts >Note the scale is not linear.  I have timed it with various loads on it myself, >and found this to be the case also.  On the basis of the above table, my PB >GoodKnight 420 set at 10 cm must be drawing 8 or 9 watts.  This is very low, >but I tend to believe it as it matches the data I obtained when I tested the >run time with various loads. >By comparison, my blower manual states that at 20 cm pressure and with a 4 mm >leak, the blower consumes 0.75 amp.  So, an 18 amp/hour battery "should" last >24 hours.  I tend to get a bit more than that, probably because my pressure >setting is much lower than 20 cm.  At the end of the day, the info I find most >useful is actual run time, which for me, is about 24-28 hours per charge.  If I >only needed to use it 12-16 hours per week, I would be sorely tempted to look >for a slightly lower capacity (lower weight) battery to ease the carry load.   >Hope this is helpful.   >Terry

Well there ya’ go.. I got the exact same model as you… now to get the power cord in the morning and I’ll be set.. Got it charging now, I wish there was an easy way to remove the "jumper cables" though.. Also.. where I had meant to set up a couple batteries outside the bedroom window.. in small wooden box for power failures.. this should fit the bill for that as well… Tropical depression just passed.. another hurricane on the way.. Thanks for the help Chuck

Response:

On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 03:21:19 GMT, Charlie Perrin <c.l.perrin@SPAMBOTS_DIEatt.net> wrote: >On 29 Aug 2004 22:03:11 -0400, Michael Meissner wrote: >>Finally you should check the regulations — I don’t recall if you can bring >>either a UPS or a truck battery on a normal plane these days.   >Vehicle batteries: Definitely NOT, not even aboard a cargo plane. >Unless they’re part of the electrical system. (And that means they’re >not an off-the-shelf truck battery!)

I could carry a auto battery.. only have to lable it as hazmat, and keep paperwork for that… no biggie Just wanting to avoid weight. But got the problem solved I think.. with the sealed  jumpstart battery.. thanks though.. Chuck

Response:

"Michael Meissner" <mrmn…@the-meissners.org> wrote in message

news:m3wtzhgz6o.fsf@tiktok.the-meissners.org… > "Twinkle" <Sl…@last.never> writes: >> Check out computer shops. They may be cheaper elsewhere of course but I >> don’t know other places in the land of 110V. There are things you can buy >> called "Uninterruptible Power Supplies" or "UPS" for short that can range >> from 4 minutes up to what you want and come in sized from powerboard >> small >> to about breadbox sized. >> They may hold enough charge for what you want. They are also unlikely to >> explode which overcharging a truck battery can do. > Unfortunately they have a habit of beeping when the power goes off.  Also,

You CAN turn that off on most. > unless you get the $600 or so UPS, it likely won’t last long, and also it > won’t

That all depends where you buy from. > deliver a pure sine wave which I think the humidifier needs.  Finally you

They actually deliver the proper power the right way. Eg, no dips, no uppers either. > should check the regulations — I don’t recall if you can bring either a > UPS or

If you can take a laptop into a cabin, you can take a UPS.

Response:

>Terry >How do they size the jumpstart batteries? AmpHour ratings like car >batteries? >What size do you have? >Chuck

Truth is, the literature that comes with them is very evasive on that point. My current jumpstart battery is an EverStart Maxx Jump Starter, Model HP450-2. It claims to have "up to 500 amp starting power," which I would take as a maximum instantaneous current flow, which would not be sustained very long. This is in keeping with its original function as a jump start battery for cars, where maximum cranking amps is about all that counts.  Inside the manual it lists its capacity as 18 amp/hour, but I don’t believe that info was on the outside of the package.  Weight is 19 lbs.   Probably the most useful info from the cpap user’s standpoint is the table in the battery’s manual that lists the estimated run time for gadgets of various wattages. Mine lists: 30 hours for 5 watts 21 hours for 10 watts 12 hours for 15 watts 3 hours for 45 watts 1.5 hours for 80 watts 1 hour for 135 watts Note the scale is not linear.  I have timed it with various loads on it myself, and found this to be the case also.  On the basis of the above table, my PB GoodKnight 420 set at 10 cm must be drawing 8 or 9 watts.  This is very low, but I tend to believe it as it matches the data I obtained when I tested the run time with various loads. By comparison, my blower manual states that at 20 cm pressure and with a 4 mm leak, the blower consumes 0.75 amp.  So, an 18 amp/hour battery "should" last 24 hours.  I tend to get a bit more than that, probably because my pressure setting is much lower than 20 cm.  At the end of the day, the info I find most useful is actual run time, which for me, is about 24-28 hours per charge.  If I only needed to use it 12-16 hours per week, I would be sorely tempted to look for a slightly lower capacity (lower weight) battery to ease the carry load.   Hope this is helpful.   Terry

Response:

On 29 Aug 2004 22:03:11 -0400, Michael Meissner wrote: >Finally you should check the regulations — I don’t recall if you can bring >either a UPS or a truck battery on a normal plane these days.  

Vehicle batteries: Definitely NOT, not even aboard a cargo plane. Unless they’re part of the electrical system. (And that means they’re not an off-the-shelf truck battery!)

Response:

"Twinkle" <Sl…@last.never> writes: > Check out computer shops. They may be cheaper elsewhere of course but I > don’t know other places in the land of 110V. There are things you can buy > called "Uninterruptible Power Supplies" or "UPS" for short that can range > from 4 minutes up to what you want and come in sized from powerboard small > to about breadbox sized. > They may hold enough charge for what you want. They are also unlikely to > explode which overcharging a truck battery can do.

Unfortunately they have a habit of beeping when the power goes off.  Also, unless you get the $600 or so UPS, it likely won’t last long, and also it won’t deliver a pure sine wave which I think the humidifier needs.  Finally you should check the regulations — I don’t recall if you can bring either a UPS or a truck battery on a normal plane these days.  I’ve used my Remstar with the car adaptor plugged into a car jump start battery, but I haven’t figured out how much charge is in it. — Michael Meissner email: mrmn…@the-meissners.org http://www.the-meissners.org

Response:

On 29 Aug 2004 15:41:54 GMT, tlbl…@aol.com (Tlbliss) wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>I plan on rigging >>battery on small hand truck, or inside old wheeled flight bag with >>vent.   Max use per workweek would be four, four hour periods. >>Average will probably be three, four hour periods. >>Using Remstar pro, which I’m told should be fused at 3 amps slow blow. >>Passover humidity. >>Ideas, suggestions requested.. Is 16 hours on one charge going to be >>pushing it for small deep cycle? Or would  it be better for smaller >>deep cycle and more frequent recharges? >First, determine (via the manual) if your Remstar blower can pulg directly into >12 volt DC.  I suspect yes, since you asked about making your own DC cord to >save $35.  The current model Remstar Pro can plug directly into 12 volt DC.  If >you can do this, you can ignore all previous well intended advice concerning >inverters.  Inverters add cost, weight, and bulk to the package, and they also >eat battery power due to terribly inefficient power conversion.   >I would also ignore the well intended advice from the individual that suggested >the unterruptable power supply that is marketed for computer use.  It contains >an inverter, so you can plug your 120 volt AC computer components directly into >it, and it is a rather high capacity inverter compared to your needs, if you >even need one.  The batteries in the uninterruptable power supply probably >don’t have the capacity you need unless you buy a huge one. >Deep cycle marine batteries look like car batteries.  You can get a much more >travel friendly version of this, a jump start battery, at any auto parts store >or large discount store such as Wal-Mart.  They have molded in carry handles >and cigarette lighter style plug sockets, and they have gel rather than liquid >acid inside, so they are pretty rugged and leakproof.  Some come with inverters >built in; again, determine if you need that feature, since it adds cost, bulk, >and weight.  A typical jump start battery powered my old cpap, with an >inverter, for only 6-8 hours.  The exact same jump start battery powers my new >cpap, which can plug directly into 12 volt DC, for 24-28 hours before requiring >charging.  They cost about US$50-70. >I have been using jump start batteries (with and without inverters) to power my >various cpap blowers for more than 5 years, through at least 50 nights of Boy >Scout camping trips.  The first jump start battery I bought 5 years ago just >stopped holding a charge about 6 months ago, so figure it has been charged way >more than 50 times (I also use it for other things).  I think you will find >this a satisfactory solution for your intended application, based on weekly >recharges after 12-16 hours of use (without an inverter). If you can recharge >more frequently, you could go to a smaller jump start battery.  Considering the >advantages of using cpap when you travel on an every week basis, if the jump >start batttery only lasts year or two under such heavy use, it would still be >worth it.   >Terry

Terry How do they size the jumpstart batteries? AmpHour ratings like car batteries? What size do you have? Chuck

Response:

I just returned from purchasing "Everstart Maxx" jump start device.   I was unsuccessful at Radio Shack for power cord with proper end. I could have gotten one that was adaptable to all with connector. But this end could be rotated and plugged in with reverse polarity or get lost and this rig would have cost $15 bucks and voided warranty if I fried my unit.  I will contact my DME tomorrow for factory cord at $30 .. The everstart max with 2 dc lighter plugs and no  inverter.  Has charger built in and requires an extension cord to charge with only one outlet on very end of cord. (not the usual in US 2 outlets one side , one outlet other) It uses more like an outdoor extension cord. The Jumpstart device is 500 amp and shows in paperwork, how long charge will last with various loads..  My CPAP has MAX draw of 3 amp I don’t know what it would be at 11cm h20.. AT 1.5 amp the lead acid, glass matt battery should last 12 hours Price was $68 plus tax US.  considering it includes charger, won’t spill acid and weighs only 19 lbs,  I consider it a deal already.  If I have to .. I’ll buy a second one to extend charging times between uses.. Thanks for the advice.. for some reason I had forgotten about these things.. Had seen them used.. but it never dawned on me that it could be my answer. Chuck – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -On Sun, 29 Aug 2004 22:44:46 GMT, Tamarisk <no-s…@sonic.net> wrote: >Tlbliss wrote: >> I have been using jump start batteries (with and without inverters) to power my >> various cpap blowers for more than 5 years, through at least 50 nights of Boy >> Scout camping trips.  The first jump start battery I bought 5 years ago just >> stopped holding a charge about 6 months ago, so figure it has been charged way >> more than 50 times (I also use it for other things).  I think you will find >> this a satisfactory solution for your intended application, based on weekly >> recharges after 12-16 hours of use (without an inverter). If you can recharge >> more frequently, you could go to a smaller jump start battery.  Considering the >> advantages of using cpap when you travel on an every week basis, if the jump >> start batttery only lasts year or two under such heavy use, it would still be >> worth it.   >Also note that in order to gain the longest life from your lead-acid >battery, you shouldn’t go for maximum discharge!  Recharge frequently, >if possible, before you take the voltage down too far.  Also recharge >as soon as possible rather than letting it sit in a discharged or >partially discharge state.

Response:

On Sun, 29 Aug 2004 16:20:07 GMT, Chuck  <n…@nospam.com> wrote: >On 29 Aug 2004 15:41:54 GMT, tlbl…@aol.com (Tlbliss) wrote: >I don’t need the inverter.. I’ll  have to check Walmart today for the >jumpstart battery and radio shack for parts to make power cord (my >blower will take 12 dc, just doesn’t come with cord. >Thanks for the info everyone >Thanks for the details on the jumpstart battery Terry >Chuck

Do make sure that you incorporate a fuse of little more than the machine needs in the lead and locate it close to the battery.   5A or 10A should be enough. Should a fault develop in the machine or connector that causes a short circuit,  any of these batteries can deliver enough current to melt the wire in the power cord and perhaps cause a fire.     It’s also a good idea to make sure that you cover the battery terminals with insulation of some sort in case something metal drops across them accidentally. .andy To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Response:

Try looking at a 12V Power Pack with builtin inverter (150W  continous  and 300W peak ).  You can find these at Pep Boys, Costco, Sams Club, Kragen Auto or Auto Zone, etc.  I bought one at Kragen.  I tested it on a BiLEvel PAP device and it ran > 9hrs on a single charge.  It probably would have gone longer, but I turned it off  as I just wanted to see if it would go at least 8 hrs..  It is less expensive ($80.00)  than a 12V deep cycle marine battery. Glenn "Chuck" <n…@nospam.com> wrote in message

news:hsd1j0t87hjhpmq2og2ebv8vdi4ee2bj8r@4ax.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Background.. > I have read posts in past concerning camping.. pros cons of size of > batteries.  (but didn’t take notes due to me not camping..) > I’m a pilot for nighttime freight operation.  NEW schedule will cause > me to have 4 to 6 hour layover in place that I won’t have access to > 110 volts.  I can carry whatever I want onto plane.  I plan on rigging > battery on small hand truck, or inside old wheeled flight bag with > vent.   Max use per workweek would be four, four hour periods. > Average will probably be three, four hour periods. > Using Remstar pro, which I’m told should be fused at 3 amps slow blow. > Passover humidity. > Ideas, suggestions requested.. Is 16 hours on one charge going to be > pushing it for small deep cycle? Or would  it be better for smaller > deep cycle and more frequent recharges? > Has anyone made their own dc cord for Remstar pro? no markings on unit > to confirm  negative connector is on "outside" of positive pin. I > don’t want to fry unit, don’t want to pay $35 for Remstar dc > connector.. > (If battery is real small, lightweight and could stand 5 hours use > followed by 12 charge I’d prefer this..) > Thanks > Chuck

Response:

"Chuck" <n…@nospam.com> wrote in message

news:hsd1j0t87hjhpmq2og2ebv8vdi4ee2bj8r@4ax.com… > Background.. > I have read posts in past concerning camping.. pros cons of size of > batteries.  (but didn’t take notes due to me not camping..) > I’m a pilot for nighttime freight operation.  NEW schedule will cause > me to have 4 to 6 hour layover in place that I won’t have access to > 110 volts.  I can carry whatever I want onto plane.  I plan on rigging > battery on small hand truck, or inside old wheeled flight bag with > vent.   Max use per workweek would be four, four hour periods. > Average will probably be three, four hour periods. > Using Remstar pro, which I’m told should be fused at 3 amps slow blow. > Passover humidity.

Check out computer shops. They may be cheaper elsewhere of course but I don’t know other places in the land of 110V. There are things you can buy called "Uninterruptible Power Supplies" or "UPS" for short that can range from 4 minutes up to what you want and come in sized from powerboard small to about breadbox sized. They may hold enough charge for what you want. They are also unlikely to explode which overcharging a truck battery can do.

Response:

On 29 Aug 2004 15:41:54 GMT, tlbl…@aol.com (Tlbliss) wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>I plan on rigging >>battery on small hand truck, or inside old wheeled flight bag with >>vent.   Max use per workweek would be four, four hour periods. >>Average will probably be three, four hour periods. >>Using Remstar pro, which I’m told should be fused at 3 amps slow blow. >>Passover humidity. >>Ideas, suggestions requested.. Is 16 hours on one charge going to be >>pushing it for small deep cycle? Or would  it be better for smaller >>deep cycle and more frequent recharges? >First, determine (via the manual) if your Remstar blower can pulg directly into >12 volt DC.  I suspect yes, since you asked about making your own DC cord to >save $35.  The current model Remstar Pro can plug directly into 12 volt DC.  If >you can do this, you can ignore all previous well intended advice concerning >inverters.  Inverters add cost, weight, and bulk to the package, and they also >eat battery power due to terribly inefficient power conversion.   >I would also ignore the well intended advice from the individual that suggested >the unterruptable power supply that is marketed for computer use.  It contains >an inverter, so you can plug your 120 volt AC computer components directly into >it, and it is a rather high capacity inverter compared to your needs, if you >even need one.  The batteries in the uninterruptable power supply probably >don’t have the capacity you need unless you buy a huge one. >Deep cycle marine batteries look like car batteries.  You can get a much more >travel friendly version of this, a jump start battery, at any auto parts store >or large discount store such as Wal-Mart.  They have molded in carry handles >and cigarette lighter style plug sockets, and they have gel rather than liquid >acid inside, so they are pretty rugged and leakproof.  Some come with inverters >built in; again, determine if you need that feature, since it adds cost, bulk, >and weight.  A typical jump start battery powered my old cpap, with an >inverter, for only 6-8 hours.  The exact same jump start battery powers my new >cpap, which can plug directly into 12 volt DC, for 24-28 hours before requiring >charging.  They cost about US$50-70. >I have been using jump start batteries (with and without inverters) to power my >various cpap blowers for more than 5 years, through at least 50 nights of Boy >Scout camping trips.  The first jump start battery I bought 5 years ago just >stopped holding a charge about 6 months ago, so figure it has been charged way >more than 50 times (I also use it for other things).  I think you will find >this a satisfactory solution for your intended application, based on weekly >recharges after 12-16 hours of use (without an inverter). If you can recharge >more frequently, you could go to a smaller jump start battery.  Considering the >advantages of using cpap when you travel on an every week basis, if the jump >start batttery only lasts year or two under such heavy use, it would still be >worth it.   >Terry

I don’t need the inverter.. I’ll  have to check Walmart today for the jumpstart battery and radio shack for parts to make power cord (my blower will take 12 dc, just doesn’t come with cord. Thanks for the info everyone Thanks for the details on the jumpstart battery Terry Chuck

Response:

Background.. I have read posts in past concerning camping.. pros cons of size of batteries.  (but didn’t take notes due to me not camping..) I’m a pilot for nighttime freight operation.  NEW schedule will cause me to have 4 to 6 hour layover in place that I won’t have access to 110 volts.  I can carry whatever I want onto plane.  I plan on rigging battery on small hand truck, or inside old wheeled flight bag with vent.   Max use per workweek would be four, four hour periods. Average will probably be three, four hour periods. Using Remstar pro, which I’m told should be fused at 3 amps slow blow. Passover humidity. Ideas, suggestions requested.. Is 16 hours on one charge going to be pushing it for small deep cycle? Or would  it be better for smaller deep cycle and more frequent recharges? Has anyone made their own dc cord for Remstar pro? no markings on unit to confirm  negative connector is on "outside" of positive pin. I don’t want to fry unit, don’t want to pay $35 for Remstar dc connector.. (If battery is real small, lightweight and could stand 5 hours use followed by 12 charge I’d prefer this..) Thanks Chuck

Response:

Question:

Ah the summer-time! Despite the murky weather in New England, it’s been a fun week! I went camping with a friend for a few days, and experienced the joy (oh, the joy) of sleeping in a tent for the first time since I camped cross-country when I was sixteen. Awoke at 4 a.m. and strolled the beach then took photos at sunrise of amazing Great White Herons and Snowy Egrets, peregrine falcons, and cormorants on a marsh. Sleeping in my comfy bed with soft sheets on Wednesday was really nice! :0> Tonight a couple of friends and I went to hear my old buddies, Aztec Two-Step play at a free outdoor concert. As usual, since 1971, they are fantastic; they played songs from their latest CD, "Days of Horses". Check them out at www.aztec-twostep.com You can hear their music on the site. Classic folk-rock! Having fun checking out photos of my niece and nephew at their camp’s website. I have never SEEN kids do so much each day! Listening now to the Convention – it is exciting, in a way. Hopefully Kerry will be our next Prez! Bruce Springstein is singing now…. I hope folks are enjoying their summer….are the kids having fun? Heck, are the adults having fun?!! Jo

Response:

>From: "Jo Cohen" joco…@comcast.net >I hope folks are enjoying their summer….are the kids having fun? >Heck, are the adults having fun?!! >Jo

Hi Jo. Glad to hear you had some fun this week. Things are getting slowly better here with my dad. He is now able to "walk" in the wheelchair by his own manpower :) And yesterday he had chopped meatloaf and mashed potatoes. Amazing how it’s like when my children ate food for the first time and took their "firsts" of everything. I did have a glorious afternoon today though. My "shift" with Dad ends at 3:00ish so I met my friend at her summer condo on the beach, sat and watched the ocean for awhile, took a 2 mile walk on the boardwalk, then watched the Long Branch lifeguards having relay races in the ocean. Fun day. Jan

Response:

"Jo Cohen" <joco…@comcast.net> wrote in message

news:BsmdnYOp6IwHMJTcRVn-pw@comcast.com… > Ah the summer-time! > Despite the murky weather in New England, it’s been a fun week! > I went camping with a friend for a few days, and experienced the joy > (oh, the joy) of sleeping in a tent for the first time since I camped > cross-country when I was sixteen. Awoke at 4 a.m. and strolled the > beach then took photos at sunrise of amazing Great White Herons and > Snowy Egrets, peregrine falcons, and cormorants on a marsh. Sleeping > in my comfy bed with soft sheets on Wednesday was really nice! :0>

Ahhhhh…nature. > Tonight a couple of friends and I went to hear my old buddies, Aztec > Two-Step play at a free outdoor concert. As usual, since 1971, they > are fantastic; they played songs from their latest CD, "Days of > Horses". Check them out at www.aztec-twostep.com > You can hear their music on the site. Classic folk-rock!

Never heard of them, and that’s not like me.  ;-) > Having fun checking out photos of my niece and nephew at their camp’s > website. I have never SEEN kids do so much each day!

Let me sound like an old man:  Kids these days seem to get more done in the summer than I ever did. > Listening now to the Convention – it is exciting, in a way. Hopefully > Kerry will be our next Prez! Bruce Springstein is singing now….

I, too, have been watching some of the Convention.  I don’t necessarily believe what all the speakers had to say, but it was an electrifying week for the Democrats. > I hope folks are enjoying their summer….are the kids having fun? > Heck, are the adults having fun?!!

Kids are working but manage to still have fun.  Somehow, I’ve forgotten how to balance the two.  Still working on that one. One downer this week for me:  a client I have been working with a long time has run away.  I don’t blame him, given his living conditions.  Still, I worry about him. Pablo

Response:

Nice week? NOT very……………100 degrees and I am not alowed in my pool until Aug 20th……………altho my Uro Dr taught me how to "tuck it under" so I can drive ……….but where is there to drive in Meth Land? Also Southern hygine just ain’t there…………….the word "bath" can make people run withn fear here…….Tried it in a store………..it was like yelling FIRE in a apartment store……………….1 thing I always find an abundance in at Krugers……..Ivory soap…………………NO one knows what to do with it unless to snort it LOL Only other good  news is that I now have one of the first Cell Phone TDDs made……………so now I can be moblie IF I had somepace to go "Jo Cohen" <joco…@comcast.net> wrote in message

news:BsmdnYOp6IwHMJTcRVn-pw@comcast.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Ah the summer-time! > Despite the murky weather in New England, it’s been a fun week! > I went camping with a friend for a few days, and experienced the joy > (oh, the joy) of sleeping in a tent for the first time since I camped > cross-country when I was sixteen. Awoke at 4 a.m. and strolled the > beach then took photos at sunrise of amazing Great White Herons and > Snowy Egrets, peregrine falcons, and cormorants on a marsh. Sleeping > in my comfy bed with soft sheets on Wednesday was really nice! :0> > Tonight a couple of friends and I went to hear my old buddies, Aztec > Two-Step play at a free outdoor concert. As usual, since 1971, they > are fantastic; they played songs from their latest CD, "Days of > Horses". Check them out at www.aztec-twostep.com > You can hear their music on the site. Classic folk-rock! > Having fun checking out photos of my niece and nephew at their camp’s > website. I have never SEEN kids do so much each day! > Listening now to the Convention – it is exciting, in a way. Hopefully > Kerry will be our next Prez! Bruce Springstein is singing now…. > I hope folks are enjoying their summer….are the kids having fun? > Heck, are the adults having fun?!! > Jo

Response:

Question:

A few interspersed comments re trach and outdoor activities… In article <20040301103628.28401.00000…@mb-m29.aol.com>, tlbl…@aol.com says… > >Ever considered trache? > Of course I considered it, but I love the water- swimming, scuba, canoeing, and > white water rafting.  Trache is not compatible with these activities.  Probably > also not compatable with backpacking and other such stuff I do with the Boy > Scouts.

True, scuba is out, as is the quick dip in a lake. However with some prep and care, canoeing, rafting, kayaks are all still good- even whitewater, although for other reasons I don’t do that any longer. Backpacking needs some readjustment of straps and such, but is still possible. Wilderness camping requires a slightly different set of filters and first aid gear than a week at residence camp. You can even stand next to a campfire and not be too uncomfortable from the smoke. > There are also work related issues.  I as a technical consultant, I go to > industrial facilites, some of which require that visitors be able to use Scott > packs (self-contained breathing apparatus, used to exit the facility if there > is a toxic fumes leak).  Some of these places even require visitors to be clean > shaven, in order to get a good seal with the mask.  I don’t think I would want > to get into a discussion of trache compatibility with every such place I go.  

Here’s where you have a major problem- from all my research for filters and respirators, there aren’t any that will work if you have an open trach, and most will not fit properly even if the trach is capped. There are options for dust and particulate matter, but nothing for toxic or other fumes. > So, by comparison, cpap is very minimally restricting.  No work related issues > (other than packing it when I travel).  I use it 90% of the time on Scout trips > (only exceptions are when backpacking and on overnight canoe trips when we > carry all our gear in the boats and sleep along the river).  Total of perhaps > 4-6 nights per year, so I am still 98% compliant.  Longest I ever went was 4 > nights when I kayaked to BSA Seabase off the Florida keys.  If I go to Philmont > Scout ranch in New Mexico one day, that could be 10 nights.  

The add-in weight of specialized care materials for a trach would not be much more than having to tote a medium dutch oven <g>. Not too terrible for a canoe or kayak trip, but I wouldn’t want it on MY back over 40 or 50 miles of Philmont trails. > When I intentionally go a night without my cpap, I make a point to have someone > else drive.  A single night without cpap is no worse than a lousy night of > sleep for other reasons (too little time, too much noise, uncomfortable > sleeping conditions, on an overnight flight to Europe, etc).  But, given a > choice, I avoid the legal liability of driving someone else’s kids when I do > not expect a good night’s sleep. > Terry

Overall, the trach was the right option for me… I still can’t sleep well while camping, but it’s usually a rock the jasm sneaks under my tent and not for lack of breath. Regards, Vic

Response:

>Ever considered trache?

Of course I considered it, but I love the water- swimming, scuba, canoeing, and white water rafting.  Trache is not compatible with these activities.  Probably also not compatable with backpacking and other such stuff I do with the Boy Scouts. There are also work related issues.  I as a technical consultant, I go to industrial facilites, some of which require that visitors be able to use Scott packs (self-contained breathing apparatus, used to exit the facility if there is a toxic fumes leak).  Some of these places even require visitors to be clean shaven, in order to get a good seal with the mask.  I don’t think I would want to get into a discussion of trache compatibility with every such place I go.   So, by comparison, cpap is very minimally restricting.  No work related issues (other than packing it when I travel).  I use it 90% of the time on Scout trips (only exceptions are when backpacking and on overnight canoe trips when we carry all our gear in the boats and sleep along the river).  Total of perhaps 4-6 nights per year, so I am still 98% compliant.  Longest I ever went was 4 nights when I kayaked to BSA Seabase off the Florida keys.  If I go to Philmont Scout ranch in New Mexico one day, that could be 10 nights.   When I intentionally go a night without my cpap, I make a point to have someone else drive.  A single night without cpap is no worse than a lousy night of sleep for other reasons (too little time, too much noise, uncomfortable sleeping conditions, on an overnight flight to Europe, etc).  But, given a choice, I avoid the legal liability of driving someone else’s kids when I do not expect a good night’s sleep. Terry

Response:

>Overnight, 2 nights just require a deep discharge battery and inverter, >which is just extra weight in the canoe. Requirements (battery size) >depend mostly on pressure. It is the longer trips that present a >problem.

I don’t attempt to take my cpap on canoe trips.  I don’t want to take the risk of getting it wet or damaged, and the extra weight of the battery, inverter, and cpap is unreasonable for a canoe.  I just go without for a few days.  I went 42 years without it prior to 1997.  A few days a year won’t kill me.   I am in the process of replacing my old 5 lb Sullivan V blower with a 1.6 lb GoodKnight 420.  The new one will run directly on 12 Volts DC so I will no longer have to drag along an inverter.  Should make all Scout trips easier.   Terry

Response:

Victor Radin <vradinNOS…@NOSPAMameritech.net> wrote: >Here’s where you have a major problem- from all my research for filters >and respirators, there aren’t any that will work if you have an open >trach, and most will not fit properly even if the trach is capped. There >are options for dust and particulate matter, but nothing for toxic >or other fumes.

I use the Montgomery trache tube from Boston Medical Products.  It effectively provides a seal during the day and is only open at night. It stays put on its own and doesn’t ever need a strap. I have used the Montgomery tube for four out of the five years since my operation.  There is no way I would go back to an open tube, such is the comfort and convenience of the Montgomery. http://www.bosmed.com/

Response:

Tlbliss wrote:

…snip….. > So, by comparison, cpap is very minimally restricting.  No work related issues > (other than packing it when I travel).  I use it 90% of the time on Scout trips > (only exceptions are when backpacking and on overnight canoe trips when we > carry all our gear in the boats and sleep along the river).

Overnight, 2 nights just require a deep discharge battery and inverter, which is just extra weight in the canoe. Requirements (battery size) depend mostly on pressure. It is the longer trips that present a problem.

Response:

"WPM" <w…@hal-pc.org> wrote in message

news:XYB_b.19345$jl.4536@fe2.texas.rr.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Im considering having surgrey re my sleep apnea and need opinions. > 1. I was told that my tonsils would be removed. > 2. My adnois would be removed. > My uvea (msp) the thing in the back of my throat would be removed. > 3. My deviated setum would be straightened. > 4. Solf tissues in my throat would be removed ( I think) > All this at one time. > I was told the operation may or may not cure my apnea, but it would improve > my sleep. > I would have a 4-6 week recovery time and it would be painfull afterwards > and I would lose weight (which might be the best thing) > Im 54yr old male. > Has anyone here had all this done and was it worth it? > BTW…I do have a cpap > (Please reply to my email address) > w…@hal-pc.org > Thank you > — > Patrick Mahon > WPM COMPANY > 5773 Woodway Dr., PMB 202 > Houston, TX 77057 > (877) 976-2667 Toll Free > (281) 444-1956 Fax > Process service for Houston (Harris County), Texas > and surrounding towns and counties. > I also have contacts all over Texas and the U.S.A.. > 20 years of service

I am 39, male, not overweight…had UPPP in August ‘03.  Took about 4 – 5 weeks to recover, but my throat is still very sensitive to hot and spicy foods, can’t drink very fast because stuff tends to come out my nose (it is getting better tho’). On my first sleep study I had 26 apnea events per hour, 2nd study 7 weeks after surgery I was down to 19 events.  I feel alot better most of the time, drinking alcohol makes me feel worse (wonder why?).  My wife says my snoring is much better now, but not gone completely…I use a CPAP occasionally, about 6 or 7 nights a month. I DO NOT recommend UPPP surgery.  Painful, too much risk of unpleasant side effects, and ultimately not successful.  To the surgeon, successful surgery is a decrease in symptoms, not necessarily 100% cure. So your surgeon will have a high success rate, but a low cure rate.  Ask him how many of his patients are actually CURED, not just BETTER. I am trying to get an adjustable mandibular advancement device from my dentist, hopefully it will work… Eddie

Response:

>  I’d like to ask, what is it about MMA that you are so resistant to?  From >what I’ve been able to tell, the recovery from MMA is actually easier than >UPPP, and clearly the success rate is better.  I haven’t seen MMA  described >as >a "next step" after UPPP, as UPPP has rightly fallen out of favor in general.

Three years before my UPPP, I was supposedly permanently "cured" of sleep apena by nasal surgery only (turbanate reduction and septoplasty).  Three years later, the simptoms were back, so I cajoled my way into a UPPP against the recommendation of every doc I spoke to.  I wanted a cure, not a long term commitment to cpap.   I was greatly discouraged by the terrible failure of my UPPP (my sleep index went from 25 to 74!).  The UPPP recovery was much longer than I expected, and the side effects were worse than I expected.  I still can’t blow up balloons. I "snark" food or drinks through my nose if someone tells a really funny joke while I am swallowing.  I also found out that there is a function to the Uvula- it supposedly ‘wipes" the back of yoru throat when secretions discharge from your sinuses.  When I have sinus drainage, even though it is infrequent, I have difficulty dislodging them from the back of my throat. Now, after two failed surgeries, I am on cpap for the last 6 years.  It’s no so bad. The surgeon that discussed MMA with me 6 years ago also told me the recovery was easier than from the UPPP.  I just wasn’t ready to get into that again. The potential side effects of MMA are really horrific.  They include long term nerve damage, bite misalignment, jaw joint damage, and weakenss in the jaw. After getting every one of the lousy side effects of the UPPP, I figured I would get all the goodies from the MMA as well.  Some years back, there were several people on this newsgroup that had suffered some of these during MMA procedures. One thing that really unsold me from the MMA was the change in the shape of my face.  Both my upper and lower jaw would be brought forward.  Essentially, I would be given a snout.  The doc laughed at this description and instead called it a Kirk Douglas chin, but I was not comfortable with this sort of thing.  I suppose I am a poor candidate for plastic surgery.  I am even unenthusiastic about tattoos and piercings; I don’t have any, and I doubt if I will ever get any.  Obviously much of the rest of the world does not feel this way. By comparison, cpap is not that big of a thing, and I can always consider some longer term cure when a reasonable procedure is documented with long term success.  Remember, the history of sleep apnea is littered with hot ideas that didn’t work in the long run.  Remember LAUP?  I am still watching the procedure where the tongue is pulled forward with a string that passes through the tongue and is tied to an anchor screw on the inside of the jaw.  No rush to judgement for me.   As you get older, you tend to think of managing physical afflictions rather than curing them.   >  Someone else asked about a trach; MMA may seem drastic but if CPAP didn’t >work for me I’d sure consider MMA long and hard before a trach. >JGM

Yes, see my response to Eric’s question.   Terry

Response:

Tlbliss wrote: > I pressed for the UPPP procedure over his >objections.  We both knew the probability for success was not high.  I was >very >resistant to the notion of being tethered to a cpap for the rest of my life >at >age 39.  After two surgeries, and just as severe apnea (but I breathe better) >I >have been on cpap now for 6 years.   Reason is because I am not willing to >consider the next stage of surgery, maxilo-mandibular advancement.

  I’d like to ask, what is it about MMA that you are so resistant to?  From what I’ve been able to tell, the recovery from MMA is actually easier than UPPP, and clearly the success rate is better.  I haven’t seen MMA  described as a "next step" after UPPP, as UPPP has rightly fallen out of favor in general.     Someone else asked about a trach; MMA may seem drastic but if CPAP didn’t work for me I’d sure consider MMA long and hard before a trach. JGM

Response:

Ever considered trache? On 28 Feb 2004 23:45:47 GMT, tlbl…@aol.com (Tlbliss) wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>>I have used CPAP since the second surgery, 6 years now.  I am considered a >>>surgical failure.  I am not alone. >>When the success rate for a surgery is only around 30%, it is not you >>who is the failure, but the notion in some surgeon’s head that the >>surgery was worthwhile in the first place. >I don’t blame the surgeon.  I pressed for the UPPP procedure over his >objections.  We both knew the probability for success was not high.  I was very >resistant to the notion of being tethered to a cpap for the rest of my life at >age 39.  After two surgeries, and just as severe apnea (but I breathe better) I >have been on cpap now for 6 years.   Reason is because I am not willing to >consider the next stage of surgery, maxilo-mandibular advancement.  By >comparison, cpap doesn’t seem so bad.  That doesn’ t mean I won’t consider soem >new procedure down the road, if it makes sense.  So far, nothing seems to meet >that criteria.   >Terry

regards, eric pearson nonono.ericp1.non…@nonono.fuse.net

Response:

>1. I was told that my tonsils would be removed. >2. My adnois would be removed.

I don’t think I had my tonsils and adinoids out. >My uvea (msp) the thing in the back of my throat would be removed.

I did have this done, as part of a UPPP >3. My deviated setum would be straightened.

This is very worthwhile. >4. Solf tissues in my throat would be removed ( I think) >All this at one time.

Also part of the UPPP >I was told the operation may or may not cure my apnea, but it would improve >my sleep.

It did not cure my apnea, but it did improve my breathing.  To the extent that it is necessary to breathe well to sleep well, I will agree with that. >I would have a 4-6 week recovery time and it would be painfull afterwards >and I would lose weight (which might be the best thing)

I went back to work half time after about a week, but it was a drag.  I had no strength.  As a desk jockey that was OK.  Worst thing was driving in.  I lost lots of weight, but it came back.  I was fully recovered after 4-6 weeks. >Im 54yr old male.

I had my first nasal surgery at 39 and the second nasal surgery, with a UPPP, at age 42. >Has anyone here had all this done and was it worth it?

The nasal work was worth it.  I breathe much better than I did before.  I simply could not nose breathe at night prior to the surgery.  Could not get enough air via nose alone.  The UPPP was not helpful.  I still had apnea. >BTW…I do have a cpap

I have used CPAP since the second surgery, 6 years now.  I am considered a surgical failure.  I am not alone. >(Please reply to my email address) >w…@hal-pc.org

I did. Terry

Response:

On 26 Feb 2004 13:05:13 GMT, tlbl…@aol.com (Tlbliss) wrote: >I have used CPAP since the second surgery, 6 years now.  I am considered a >surgical failure.  I am not alone.

When the success rate for a surgery is only around 30%, it is not you who is the failure, but the notion in some surgeon’s head that the surgery was worthwhile in the first place. .andy To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Response:

>>I have used CPAP since the second surgery, 6 years now.  I am considered a >>surgical failure.  I am not alone. >When the success rate for a surgery is only around 30%, it is not you >who is the failure, but the notion in some surgeon’s head that the >surgery was worthwhile in the first place.

I don’t blame the surgeon.  I pressed for the UPPP procedure over his objections.  We both knew the probability for success was not high.  I was very resistant to the notion of being tethered to a cpap for the rest of my life at age 39.  After two surgeries, and just as severe apnea (but I breathe better) I have been on cpap now for 6 years.   Reason is because I am not willing to consider the next stage of surgery, maxilo-mandibular advancement.  By comparison, cpap doesn’t seem so bad.  That doesn’ t mean I won’t consider soem new procedure down the road, if it makes sense.  So far, nothing seems to meet that criteria.   Terry

Response:

In article <46gm30da8qocm38eqtlu4djnfbvf9me…@4ax.com>, nonono.ericp1.non…@nonono.fuse.net says… > Surgery usually does not stop apnea. > About 50% of the time surgery makes > apnea 50% better. > The main benefit is to the $urgeon.

What Eric said, but also…   Recovery time, based on what my ENT told me was 5 to 9 MONTHS not weeks. You can lose your voice or have a severe vocal change- in other words, if you depend on speaking for a living, you may need to reconsider your career options. There is also a chance that post-surgery use of xPAP if required (and it often is) becomes impossible due to the amount of tissue removed, so you’ll be trapped having apnea and NOT being able to use xPAP. Your only option from there is a tracheotomy- the ultimate (and only) surgical cure for Obstructive Apnea. If this "may or may not cure the apnea" how the hell is it going to improve YOUR sleep? Oh, I know- it’s the drugs to kill the pain that knock you out. The surgeon will certainly sleep better, he’s getting his boat paid off and maybe a couple of semesters of college for his brats. The surgeon only has HIS interests in mind. You’re just a nail*. /vic *to the man with only a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

Response:

Surgery usually does not stop apnea. About 50% of the time surgery makes apnea 50% better. The main benefit is to the $urgeon. regards, eric pearson nonono.ericp1.non…@nonono.fuse.net – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 06:14:15 GMT, "WPM" <w…@hal-pc.org> wrote: >Im considering having surgrey re my sleep apnea and need opinions. >1. I was told that my tonsils would be removed. >2. My adnois would be removed. >My uvea (msp) the thing in the back of my throat would be removed. >3. My deviated setum would be straightened. >4. Solf tissues in my throat would be removed ( I think) >All this at one time. >I was told the operation may or may not cure my apnea, but it would improve >my sleep. >I would have a 4-6 week recovery time and it would be painfull afterwards >and I would lose weight (which might be the best thing) >Im 54yr old male. >Has anyone here had all this done and was it worth it? >BTW…I do have a cpap >(Please reply to my email address) >w…@hal-pc.org >Thank you

Response:

Im considering having surgrey re my sleep apnea and need opinions. 1. I was told that my tonsils would be removed. 2. My adnois would be removed. My uvea (msp) the thing in the back of my throat would be removed. 3. My deviated setum would be straightened. 4. Solf tissues in my throat would be removed ( I think) All this at one time. I was told the operation may or may not cure my apnea, but it would improve my sleep. I would have a 4-6 week recovery time and it would be painfull afterwards and I would lose weight (which might be the best thing) Im 54yr old male. Has anyone here had all this done and was it worth it? BTW…I do have a cpap (Please reply to my email address) w…@hal-pc.org Thank you — Patrick Mahon WPM COMPANY 5773 Woodway Dr., PMB 202 Houston, TX 77057 (877) 976-2667 Toll Free (281) 444-1956 Fax Process service for Houston (Harris County), Texas and surrounding towns and counties. I also have contacts all over Texas and the U.S.A.. 20 years of service

Response:

Question:

Thanks Vic, Eric, Buddy, for those ideas – much more practical than I was thinking. As you say, I’ll just get some big socks, cut out the elastic, and see what happens. If they keep falling off, I’ll go with the velcro – or even a safety pin!. Thanks Geoff

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"GB" <ThisIsNotMyEmailAddr…@Anywhere.InTheUniverse> wrote in message <news:3fe026e4$1@news1.homechoice.co.uk>… > Thanks Vic, Eric, Buddy, for those ideas – much more practical than I was > thinking. > As you say, I’ll just get some big socks, cut out the elastic, and see what > happens. If they keep falling off, I’ll go with the velcro – or even a > safety pin!. > Thanks > Geoff

  Geoff,   My wife wears Polar Fleece socks when she sleeps. They aren’t constrictive and they cost around $10 US. They are very warm and fluffy. All good medicine, GREENFEATHER

Response:

On Wed, 17 Dec 2003 09:52:02 -0000, "GB" <ThisIsNotMyEmailAddr…@Anywhere.InTheUniverse> wrote: >Thanks Vic, Eric, Buddy, for those ideas – much more practical than I was >thinking. >As you say, I’ll just get some big socks, cut out the elastic, and see what >happens. If they keep falling off, I’ll go with the velcro – or even a >safety pin!. >Thanks >Geoff

Geoff If you are looking for high fashion in this regard, Damart is the place to look. 93 different versions of long johns, everything for the man about town. http://www.damartonline.co.uk/damart.htm The other option is to wear large size ladies tights. I have it on good authority that this is a favourite among the motor cycle branch of several police forces. Rumour has it that a constable in the Leicestershire police was involved in an accident during the winter last year.   The nurses in the local A&E were smirking in corners and he had some explaining to do.    Apparently this form of hosiery does have good insulating properties because it traps air near the legs. .andy To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Response:

I feel embarrassed to ask this, but here goes. My feet get cold at night, and I sleep better with socks on. I’m just a bit concerned that ordinary elasticated socks restrict the circulation, and what I am really after are some pyjamas with the feet sewn in. There I’ve said it! The kids used to have Babygros when they were little, which were all in one outfits with the feet sewn in and poppers up the front. That’s the sort of thing I’m looking for, only in two pieces rather than one. Anyone know where I can get one in the UK, please? :-)

Response:

Consider another option: Put some velcro on the bottoms of the pajama trousers and on the tops of the socks. That way when the socks wear out you do not need to discard the trousers. regards, eric pearson db2.e…@no.spammind-spring.com On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 18:45:05 +0000 (UTC), "GB" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -<ThisIsNotMyEmailAddr…@anywhere.intheuniverse> wrote: >I feel embarrassed to ask this, but here goes. >My feet get cold at night, and I sleep better with socks on. I’m just a bit >concerned that ordinary elasticated socks restrict the circulation, and what >I am really after are some pyjamas with the feet sewn in. There I’ve said >it! >The kids used to have Babygros when they were little, which were all in one >outfits with the feet sewn in and poppers up the front. That’s the sort of >thing I’m looking for, only in two pieces rather than one. >Anyone know where I can get one in the UK, please? >:-)

Response:

GB, I use large, thick, cottom socks that have NO elastic in the top. Good circ, warm feet, cheep cure… even, I bet, in the UK. Buddy "GB" <ThisIsNotMyEmailAddr…@anywhere.intheuniverse> wrote in message

news:brnjrh$ma2$1@titan.btinternet.com… I feel embarrassed to ask this, but here goes. My feet get cold at night, and I sleep better with socks on. I’m just a bit concerned that ordinary elasticated socks restrict the circulation, and what I am really after are some pyjamas with the feet sewn in. There I’ve said it! The kids used to have Babygros when they were little, which were all in one outfits with the feet sewn in and poppers up the front. That’s the sort of thing I’m looking for, only in two pieces rather than one. Anyone know where I can get one in the UK, please? :-)

Response:

In article <brnjrh$ma…@titan.btinternet.com>, ThisIsNotMyEmailAddr…@anywhere.intheuniverse says… > I feel embarrassed to ask this, but here goes. > My feet get cold at night, and I sleep better with socks on. I’m just a bit > concerned that ordinary elasticated socks restrict the circulation, and what > I am really after are some pyjamas with the feet sewn in. There I’ve said > it! > The kids used to have Babygros when they were little, which were all in one > outfits with the feet sewn in and poppers up the front. That’s the sort of > thing I’m looking for, only in two pieces rather than one. > Anyone know where I can get one in the UK, please? > :-)

Here’s a slightly different solution that will cost a lot less-   oversize wool socks. 2 sizes too big works for me while I’m winter camping. No (or easily removed) binding elastic, easily washable, and wool works better than almost anything else for warmth even when damp.   If you can’t find them at the usual clothing stores you can get them at most outdoor suppliers or camping outfitters. If you want the same warmth and price is no object then find a well- stocked  outdoor supply shop and look for thinsulate or polypropylene insulated socks. There are also simple footie slippers, fleece or wool that might work, but have elastic bands that need to be removed for sleeping in. Hope this helps, vic

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Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Rap Must Die…..  dem done tried…and dem failed…tried to ice tea BUT  only managed to be slack killer….now, white surbubian  kids spending mega bucks on inner city personas….tales from   the cribs…and background music to screw blue eyed muffy by,   soundtracks and musical scores for white bread’s great adventures  such as outdoor camping, weenie roast, bowling, beach blanket bingo   games, tossing frisbe to k-9s attired in  red hankys, wave running thru   fishing lines, spending dad’s allowance $ on penis growth & zit medication,  Voyeuring Friday the 13th (part 5,265) and other celluloid gems of   horror including the horror that  THE  master thesbian arnold   swartzaNIGGER brings to the pinkish-white screen,  then ya got vanilla  sex fu*k rentals that actually have plots.  Yep, these former renagades of chucky cheese parlors, game bouys,  and weird al vids are wild and fancy free….tops down, 50 cent blaring  outta Mom’s soccer mobile unit, and they want the world and they want it  now ….and ice tea, 50 cent, public enemy, snoop dogg,  mdc, and the ghost of shorty and 2pac gonna spin out ganster supply for   deadly white teeny bopper demand….no mo wishing to be doctor, lawyer   or indian chief for these kids…no lame will smithian philosophy for these   cultural edge-players …raised on the soul food of  spaghetti-O’s, peanut  butter   and jelly & rasin’ bread [with taboo crust skillfully removed via mom's  pearing knife ....]    nope, they gonna learn to suffer the black way, the cool way in their  surburbian hells..  oak and elm lined concret and tennis court jungles…..in their kool-aid and  yahoo tainted  hoods.  They gonna survive…on the bitter turf where the crab grass and wild dandelion did  not…  gurdjieff 0f gormorrah

That was beautifull.  If 50 cents spoke to me like your poetry did, I would listen to him.  Of course I am moving away from lyrics for the most part, aside from subliminal messages and ‘phantom words’, and into trancendental binaural beats and religious songs in languages I can’t understand.  There is amazing power in music, it is sad that power tends to only be used to sell records.

Response:

Rap Must Die…..

 dem done tried…and dem failed…tried to ice tea BUT  only managed to be slack killer….now, white surbubian  kids spending mega bucks on inner city personas….tales from   the cribs…and background music to screw blue eyed muffy by,   soundtracks and musical scores for white bread’s great adventures  such as outdoor camping, weenie roast, bowling, beach blanket bingo   games, tossing frisbe to k-9s attired in  red hankys, wave running thru   fishing lines, spending dad’s allowance $ on penis growth & zit medication,  Voyeuring Friday the 13th (part 5,265) and other celluloid gems of   horror including the horror that  THE  master thesbian arnold   swartzaNIGGER brings to the pinkish-white screen,  then ya got vanilla  sex fu*k rentals that actually have plots.  Yep, these former renagades of chucky cheese parlors, game bouys,  and weird al vids are wild and fancy free….tops down, 50 cent blaring  outta Mom’s soccer mobile unit, and they want the world and they want it  now ….and ice tea, 50 cent, public enemy, snoop dogg,  mdc, and the ghost of shorty and 2pac gonna spin out ganster supply for   deadly white teeny bopper demand….no mo wishing to be doctor, lawyer   or indian chief for these kids…no lame will smithian philosophy for these   cultural edge-players …raised on the soul food of  spaghetti-O’s, peanut  butter   and jelly & rasin’ bread [with taboo crust skillfully removed via mom's  pearing knife ....]    nope, they gonna learn to suffer the black way, the cool way in their  surburbian hells..  oak and elm lined concret and tennis court jungles…..in their kool-aid and  yahoo tainted  hoods.  They gonna survive…on the bitter turf where the crab grass and wild dandelion did  not…  gurdjieff 0f gormorrah

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Rap Must Die…..  dem done tried…and dem failed…tried to ice tea BUT  only managed to be slack killer….now, white surbubian  kids spending mega bucks on inner city personas….tales from   the cribs…and background music to screw blue eyed muffy by,   soundtracks and musical scores for white bread’s great adventures  such as outdoor camping, weenie roast, bowling, beach blanket bingo   games, tossing frisbe to k-9s attired in  red hankys, wave running thru   fishing lines, spending dad’s allowance $ on penis growth & zit medication,  Voyeuring Friday the 13th (part 5,265) and other celluloid gems of   horror including the horror that  THE  master thesbian arnold   swartzaNIGGER brings to the pinkish-white screen,  then ya got vanilla  sex fu*k rentals that actually have plots.  Yep, these former renagades of chucky cheese parlors, game bouys,  and weird al vids are wild and fancy free….tops down, 50 cent blaring  outta Mom’s soccer mobile unit, and they want the world and they want it  now ….and ice tea, 50 cent, public enemy, snoop dogg,  mdc, and the ghost of shorty and 2pac gonna spin out ganster supply for   deadly white teeny bopper demand….no mo wishing to be doctor, lawyer   or indian chief for these kids…no lame will smithian philosophy for these   cultural edge-players …raised on the soul food of  spaghetti-O’s, peanut  butter   and jelly & rasin’ bread [with taboo crust skillfully removed via mom's  pearing knife ....]    nope, they gonna learn to suffer the black way, the cool way in their  surburbian hells..  oak and elm lined concret and tennis court jungles…..in their kool-aid and  yahoo tainted  hoods.  They gonna survive…on the bitter turf where the crab grass and wild dandelion did  not…  gurdjieff 0f gormorrah

No shit. Demand is met by hungry artists, painting a picture of the future as the demanding want it to be. More than ever these kids want to burn down thier parent’s homes and put bullet holes in their ‘best friends’. They are the ultimated jadeds. If they were really hungry they would be satisfied with a little meat. It’s thier parent’s fault for leaving them alone while they ran off to chase the almighty consumer garbage. Watched and programmed by the television. A self-consuming culture of greed.

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Question:

"pac plyer"  wrote Dear Airshow Grouchies:

No grouchies on my part.  I love OSH!  It was only a suggestion, so those really into looking at the planes in showplane row could really see more of the beauties they brought.  A call afterwards just wouldn’t do it. I normally volunteer on homebuilt row at least 20 hours during the week, and camp on the grounds, at the explorer base, and have more responsibilities ther.  I still love it.  I couldn’t go this year, due to having back surgery, but I’ll be there next year. — Jim in NC–

Response:

This was only my second time at Osh and first time flying in.  Of course I had an awesome time.  Maybe I’ll feel differantly in twenty years.  I liked the "chat time" on the prop banner idea.   My hat’s off to the volunteers.  I thanked several of them and they seemed to indicate they truly enjoy there service.

Response:

I would suggest that on the cards that everyone hangs on their props, there be a space that would say something like "times to talk to the owner", and ask that everyone put at least one time per day that they would be willing to be at their plane, to answer questions.  I know not everyone would go for it, but it would be nice for those that would.

We had arranged a get-together for the guys on the Fly Baby mailing list, but the owner of one of the Fly Babies on the field wasn’t a member.  I stuck a note on his panel about the meeting. He showed up…as well as two or three OTHER Fly Baby fans, who’d seen the note…. Ron Wanttaja

Response:

I talked with several builders of wood planes including that GP-4. I don’t know what his problem was but he must not have walked the flight line very far.

Bob Reed, and guys and gals, I think that the feller is just disappointed that wood, plans-built machines are such a small part of wehat folks are building these days. And that’s just the way it is. Thes planes haven’t been banished from OSH; they’re just not that big a part of the craft anymore. (That, and except for your Falcos and GP-4s, wooden planes are often  ill-suited for a long X-C to OSH). Why is wood (and tube) losing out in the popularity stakes? I have my theories. A lot of guys want an easier and easier kit. Look at the popularity of quick-build kits. Heck, look at the popularity of build-assist programs, some of which have no more than a fig leaf of legality to ‘em. I think a skilled builder can probably build a wooden plane or tube-n-fabric as quickly as a metal or composite one, but the perception in the market is that "older" construction methods are "slower." Put another way, wood and steel tube & fabric are the materials of yesterday. It’s hard to shake an idea like that off. Wood’s good stuff. It’s tough to beat wood for strength. Plenty of planes have gone over 500 MPH on wooden wings. (Me163, DH Vampire). Lots of other WWII combat aircraft had wooden control surfaces, covered in fabric. Wood’s a very workable material, and its mysteries have been revealed over centuries; wood’s properties are well-documented. But the eighties were the years of Rutan and moldless foam, the nineties the years of Van and the rivet-gun, and until the next revolution in home building, we’re probably gonna see a lot more plastic and sheet-metal planes sold, built and flown than more traditional (as in pre-WWII) construction types. The guys I see working in wood are 1) really old; 2) former RC modelers; or 3) guys who already had a wood-shop hobby before taking up building. Side note: I’ve noted that success building RC models is often a harbinger of success building "real" planes. Shades of "Flight of the Phoenix"! cheers -=K=- Rule #1: Don’t hit anything big.

Response:

"pac plyer"  wrote Dear Airshow Grouchies: No grouchies on my part.  I love OSH!  It was only a suggestion, so those really into looking at the planes in showplane row could really see more of the beauties they brought.  A call afterwards just wouldn’t do it. I normally volunteer on homebuilt row at least 20 hours during the week, and camp on the grounds, at the explorer base, and have more responsibilities ther.  I still love it.  I couldn’t go this year, due to having back surgery, but I’ll be there next year.

You are a damn good man Jim, Fast recovery, pacplyer

Response:

Ed Wischmeyer wrote… First, EAA is a 501(c)3 corporation, i.e., charitable, tax exempt.

Charitable for tax purposes.  It’s a nonprofit.  Doesn’t mean they can’t take in more money than needed, just that they cannot disperse it as profits, i.e. they have to spend it on the EAA.  The result is that like almost all nonprofits, the EAA has evolved into an organization focused on & dedicated to its own itself rather than its members.  If you doubt that, look at how the EAA has grown while homebuilding has shrunk. Where did your money go? …

Read their IRS-990 filings (the mag only give totals).  When you see 22 employees drawing salaries in excess of $50,000 excluding officers, you start to get a clue.  The 990’s for the sister organizations, SnF, the museums, etcetera read similarly. Best advice? …

Best advice if you’re interested in experimental aviation would be to skip EAA events & go to flyins instead. Daniel

Response:

I’m building a wood and fabric plane and would have loved to talk to others about their planes but there were none to be found. I looked for manufacturers of wooden kits but only Fisher had the gonads to show their product. If the wood kits are as good as we are led to believe, why don?t they show us what they have to offer? Cost, most likely.  We had a recent post that a small booth in the swap-meet area was about $1500, and a small display booth inside the hangars was over $2000.  I don’t know how much an outdoor display spot is, but suspect it’s over two grand, as well.  Add in the expense of transporting your wares and people, finding housing for your employees, etc.

I have been going to OSH for the last 5 years, but I get the distinct impression that the EAA is screwing just about everyone it can screw. For instance, airplane camping and admission for the whole week runs into the hundreds of dollars. What do you get for it? Overcrowded shower facilities that are usually filthy and poor bus service from the North 40. That’s all. And then they have the collection box for more money when you get on the bus… Food prices are way out of line too. At least gas was $1.99/gallon this year – amazing what a little competition will do. So where does all this money go? Or am I being unrealistic. Either way, please tell me – I sure would like to know. Or is the EAA just another greedy commercial enterprise? — Jim

Response:

I would suggest that on the cards that everyone hangs on their props, there be a space that would say something like "times to talk to the owner", and ask that everyone put at least one time per day that they would be willing to be at their plane, to answer questions.  I know not everyone would go for it, but it would be nice for those that would.

Dear Airshow Grouchies: How to have a good time and not spend too much money: Just leave a note on the a/c.  If the guy has any voice left after Osh he’ll give you a collect call and talk all day to you.  Worked for me. Agreed it’s better in person. My last Osh was in 97′, and had a grand time.  Gunna try to go next year if we can get our old Appache/Aztec back up flying again.  The only way to fly is to haul a mo-ped or scooter.  This way you can be the first one to the showers in the morning (late…full? no-prob) scoot over to the next trailer, or the next.  (bring a bike chain and lock dummy; for the fence.) Then putter over to the Wal-Mart or low-cost joint for cheap campsite cooking supplies (good to have a basket and license plate on that sucker.) So after you land, get the wife/dog/copilot to hold up a piece of cardboard or something with big "Row 108" lettering on it and show it to every ground volt. marshaller you see.  they will lead you by the hand and point you to the best secret spot there is. Try to get out by the par. taxiway.  This will put you between two runway patterns. Turn up the scanner, grab an econ beer out of the chest and enjoy your private show.  Hell, I only made it over to the side with the herd 4 out of seven days.  Now’s the time to start being nice to your pal that owns a Stationair, Cherokee Six, or junk twin like ours.  You will have to take the front seat out at both ends of the trip and push the two man-scooter up against the two front seats for C.G.  Don’t forget to sputter over to Friar Tucks and pretend you are one of the Airshow pilots.  Guy was a dentist I discovered after about five minutes of B.S. :-) paclyer

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yes, I agree that their were wood airplanes to see, but I also see one part of his complaint. I have (in past years) wanted very much to talk to the owners of a specific few aircraft, but no matter when I went by their planes, they were never there. I would suggest that on the cards that everyone hangs on their props, there be a space that would say something like "times to talk to the owner", and ask that everyone put at least one time per day that they would be willing to be at their plane, to answer questions.  I know not everyone would go for it, but it would be nice for those that would. — Jim in NC–

Good idea Jim, I hope that this suggestion will be noted by the appropriate people with EAA.  If not, why not send it into them and possibly it can be done by next year. Bob Reed www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com      (KIS Builders Site) KIS Cruiser in progress…Slow but steady progress…. "Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice, pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!" (M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)    

Response:

income in the magazine every year :) You will see the clearly don’t make much money from oshkosh. (last time I looked, I think it was under 2 mil)

I believe that is right.   It’s split across the EAA proper and the foundation, but if I recall, the EAA a few years ago was making about a million on a five million gross. The shows a big deal, but it’s just a part of the EAA budget.

Response:

income in the magazine every year :) You will see the clearly don’t make much money from oshkosh. (last time I looked, I think it was under 2 mil) Anyone want to buy a bridge? Mike

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m building a wood and fabric plane and would have loved to talk to others about their planes but there were none to be found. I looked for manufacturers of wooden kits but only Fisher had the gonads to show their product. If the wood kits are as good as we are led to believe, why don?t they show us what they have to offer? Cost, most likely.  We had a recent post that a small booth in the swap-meet area was about $1500, and a small display booth inside the hangars was over $2000.  I don’t know how much an outdoor display spot is, but suspect it’s over two grand, as well.  Add in the expense of transporting your wares and people, finding housing for your employees, etc. I have been going to OSH for the last 5 years, but I get the distinct impression that the EAA is screwing just about everyone it can screw. For instance, airplane camping and admission for the whole week runs into the hundreds of dollars. What do you get for it? Overcrowded shower facilities that are usually filthy and poor bus service from the North 40. That’s all. And then they have the collection box for more money when you get on the bus… Food prices are way out of line too. At least gas was $1.99/gallon this year – amazing what a little competition will do. So where does all this money go? Or am I being unrealistic. Either way, please tell me – I sure would like to know. Or is the EAA just another greedy commercial enterprise? — Jim

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I’m building a wood and fabric plane and would have loved to talk to others about their planes but there were none to be found. Well… the Grand Champion plans built airplane this year was a (wood) GP-4 built by Bernie Griffin. Was that the red one that was on the Sport Aviation cover?   Had a brief chat with him.   I don’t understand why the original poster could find any.   All you have to do is cruise the airplane parking area (hint, don’t forget to look in the showplane camping area) until you come up on an owner.   They’re usually glad to talk to you.    I remember spending an entire afternoon talking to Jakie Yoder about his GP-4.

Yes, I agree that their were wood airplanes to see, but I also see one part of his complaint. I have (in past years) wanted very much to talk to the owners of a specific few aircraft, but no matter when I went by their planes, they were never there. I would suggest that on the cards that everyone hangs on their props, there be a space that would say something like "times to talk to the owner", and ask that everyone put at least one time per day that they would be willing to be at their plane, to answer questions.  I know not everyone would go for it, but it would be nice for those that would. — Jim in NC–

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I’m building a wood and fabric plane and would have loved to talk to others about their planes but there were none to be found. Well… the Grand Champion plans built airplane this year was a (wood) GP-4 built by Bernie Griffin.

Was that the red one that was on the Sport Aviation cover?   Had a brief chat with him.   I don’t understand why the original poster could find any.   All you have to do is cruise the airplane parking area (hint, don’t forget to look in the showplane camping area) until you come up on an owner.   They’re usually glad to talk to you.    I remember spending an entire afternoon talking to Jakie Yoder about his GP-4.   I’ve talked to all sorts of owners of vintage aircraft (how I got started in Navions).   This year we even were forced to drink several margaritas and eat a rather nice marinated chicken dinner with some folks.   There is a ton more going on in Oshkosh than those exhibit buildings. You think that some guy who’s probably not even breaking even making plans for a wood aircraft is going to be able to afford a booth over there?

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Huh?  I didn’t see a single money box on any of the busses I took this year…The shower facilities were just as crowded 28 years ago when I started going to Oshkosh.  I know it sounds expensive, but have you ever gone to Disney for a whole week?  I can almost guarantee Disney for a week would be more expensive. Scott http://corbenflyer.tripod.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ParasolAirplanes Building RV-4 Gotta Fly or Gonna Die! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m building a wood and fabric plane and would have loved to talk to others about their planes but there were none to be found. I looked for manufacturers of wooden kits but only Fisher had the gonads to show their product. If the wood kits are as good as we are led to believe, why don?t they show us what they have to offer? Cost, most likely.  We had a recent post that a small booth in the swap-meet area was about $1500, and a small display booth inside the hangars was over $2000.  I don’t know how much an outdoor display spot is, but suspect it’s over two grand, as well.  Add in the expense of transporting your wares and people, finding housing for your employees, etc. I have been going to OSH for the last 5 years, but I get the distinct impression that the EAA is screwing just about everyone it can screw. For instance, airplane camping and admission for the whole week runs into the hundreds of dollars. What do you get for it? Overcrowded shower facilities that are usually filthy and poor bus service from the North 40. That’s all. And then they have the collection box for more money when you get on the bus… Food prices are way out of line too. At least gas was $1.99/gallon this year – amazing what a little competition will do. So where does all this money go? Or am I being unrealistic. Either way, please tell me – I sure would like to know. Or is the EAA just another greedy commercial enterprise? — Jim

– Scott http://corbenflyer.tripod.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ParasolAirplanes Building RV-4 Gotta Fly or Gonna Die!

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Food prices are way out of line too.

Ha ha!  I just went to a state fair that smelled worse than OSH and a funnel cake’s five dollars, onion rings $4. Bitching about Fair Food is like grousing about these young kids and their rock music.  Just marks ya as an old crank. Pack a sandwich.

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I have been going to OSH for the last 5 years, but I get the distinct impression that the EAA is screwing just about everyone it can screw. For instance, airplane camping and admission for the whole week runs into the hundreds of dollars. What do you get for it? Overcrowded shower facilities that are usually filthy and poor bus service from the North 40. That’s all. And then they have the collection box for more money when you get on the bus… Food prices are way out of line too. At least gas was $1.99/gallon this year – amazing what a little competition will do. So where does all this money go? Or am I being unrealistic. Either way, please tell me – I sure would like to know. Or is the EAA just another greedy commercial enterprise?

I think it’s just a reflection of higher costs, especially in fuel, insurance, and security.  It’s not just Oshkosh, we’ve seen the same complaints here about SnF and Arlington, and the situation is the same for the large non-aviation events as well. The bathrooms smell bad at Safeco Field, too…. Ron Wanttaja

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have been going to OSH for the last 5 years, but I get the distinct impression that the EAA is screwing just about everyone it can screw. For instance, airplane camping and admission for the whole week runs into the hundreds of dollars. What do you get for it? So where does all this money go? Or am I being unrealistic. Either way, please tell me – I sure would like to know. Or is the EAA just another greedy commercial enterprise? First, EAA is a 501(c)3 corporation, i.e., charitable, tax exempt. Where did your money go? Some of it goes to keep the dues down and to run an organization that can, on the same day, attract and impress the Secretary of Transportation, the Administrator of the FAA, and the Chair of the NTSB, not to mention a couple of senators and representatives — and to help protect your freedoms to fly by working with the regulators, not just the Congress. Then there’s the free airshow, free workshops (which include free material to practice on), the free forums, the free portapotties, the free onsite health care, free delivery from town of prescription medicines, and the most comprehensive set of exhibitors to visit with, plus the work during the rest of the  year to get Sport Pilot through so lots more people can fly, the work on making aviation gasoline available after tetraethyl lead goes away because of economic issues. Bear in mind that the facility only does two events per year (it’s rented out to Ducks Unlimited for their annual shebang), so there are expenses that cannot be amortized year around. Other folks have compared prices to "comparable" events with results favorable to the EAA. Best advice? Get plugged in, get a volunteer job. It’s lots more fun that way. Ed Wischmeyer, volunteer for 9 years

Well Said Ed. Bob Reed www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com      (KIS Builders Site) KIS Cruiser in progress…Slow but steady progress…. "Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice, pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!" (M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)    

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I’m building a wood and fabric plane and would have loved to talk to others about their planes but there were none to be found. Well… the Grand Champion plans built airplane this year was a (wood) GP-4 built by Bernie Griffin. In the ultralight area, they were working on the wood wings of something or other, and there were a number of all wood planes there. There was a workshop devoted to woodworking, I believe. I saw at least two Falcos, one of them Reserve Grand Champion from two or three years ago, and there were lots of planes that had wood wings to go with their steel tube fuselages in the aerobatics area. Not to mention the antiques that had wood wings. Ed Wischmeyer

I agree Ed, I talked with several builders of wood planes including that GP-4. I don’t know what his problem was but he must not have walked the flight line very far. Bob Reed www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com      (KIS Builders Site) KIS Cruiser in progress…Slow but steady progress…. "Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice, pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!" (M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)    

Response:

I have been going to OSH for the last 5 years, but I get the distinct impression that the EAA is screwing just about everyone it can screw. For instance, airplane camping and admission for the whole week runs into the hundreds of dollars. What do you get for it? So where does all this money go? Or am I being unrealistic. Either way, please tell me – I sure would like to know. Or is the EAA just another greedy commercial enterprise?

First, EAA is a 501(c)3 corporation, i.e., charitable, tax exempt. Where did your money go? Some of it goes to keep the dues down and to run an organization that can, on the same day, attract and impress the Secretary of Transportation, the Administrator of the FAA, and the Chair of the NTSB, not to mention a couple of senators and representatives — and to help protect your freedoms to fly by working with the regulators, not just the Congress. Then there’s the free airshow, free workshops (which include free material to practice on), the free forums, the free portapotties, the free onsite health care, free delivery from town of prescription medicines, and the most comprehensive set of exhibitors to visit with, plus the work during the rest of the  year to get Sport Pilot through so lots more people can fly, the work on making aviation gasoline available after tetraethyl lead goes away because of economic issues. Bear in mind that the facility only does two events per year (it’s rented out to Ducks Unlimited for their annual shebang), so there are expenses that cannot be amortized year around. Other folks have compared prices to "comparable" events with results favorable to the EAA. Best advice? Get plugged in, get a volunteer job. It’s lots more fun that way. Ed Wischmeyer, volunteer for 9 years

  edwisch.vcf

< 1K Download

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I’m building a wood and fabric plane and would have loved to talk to others about their planes but there were none to be found.

Well… the Grand Champion plans built airplane this year was a (wood) GP-4 built by Bernie Griffin. In the ultralight area, they were working on the wood wings of something or other, and there were a number of all wood planes there. There was a workshop devoted to woodworking, I believe. I saw at least two Falcos, one of them Reserve Grand Champion from two or three years ago, and there were lots of planes that had wood wings to go with their steel tube fuselages in the aerobatics area. Not to mention the antiques that had wood wings. Ed Wischmeyer

  edwisch.vcf

< 1K Download

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It’s just a sad truth that Oshkosh isn’t affordable for the purveyors of the small plans-built aircraft that got EAA started.   The Broadhead Pietenpol Fly-In usually happens a week earlier than Oshkosh, and it’s located in Wisconsin just like Oshkosh is

This sounds more like what I want from a homebuilder flyin.  Maybe if they don’t mind some "outsiders" this little get together could be promoted to others building planes from plans or very basic kits.  I don’t see anything wrong with some Piets and Tailwinds in the same gathering and maybe the Piet owners wouldn’t mind a little diversity. I have no need of, or desire to put up with, all of the non aviatiion comercial BS that has infested Oshkosh and don’t plan to return until the ballance shifts back to the HOMEBUILDER. This year was my best Oshkosh experience in a long time.  I stayed at home, took the time and money I would normally have spent in Wisconsin, and worked on my plane.  Got a LOT done.  All my brother got was rained on……

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reflection of higher costs, especially in fuel, insurance, and security.  It’s not just Oshkosh, we’ve seen the same complaints here about SnF and Arlington, and the situation is the same for the large non-aviation events as well. The bathrooms smell bad at Safeco Field, too….

Went to the Mariners’/Blue Jays’ game on Tuesday. The bathrooms were fresh and clean on the 6th. floor. The attendant was handing out mints. There were aromatherapy lotions available. The hostess in the suite was most attentive (and attractive). Beer was $34.50/six pack. An 18" pizza was attractively priced at $40. Linda and I decided on two brats, two orders of garlic fries, a beer for her and a diet Pepsi for me for only $28. Linda had to go get it at the vendor for that price. The Oriental rug complemented the parquet floor in the suite. Outside were three levels of seating in upholstered swivel chairs. We looked down directly above first base. The icemaker easily kept up with the demands of the guests. The Moose came by to see if we were enjoying the game. I get to do this once every five years. Rich S.

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I’m building a wood and fabric plane and would have loved to talk to others about their planes but there were none to be found. I looked for manufacturers of wooden kits but only Fisher had the gonads to show their product. If the wood kits are as good as we are led to believe, why don?t they show us what they have to offer? I was told by my EAA adviser, that all I would have to do is finish the plane and show up and I would win every award given to the wooden builder. Now I know why.                                 Very Disappointed                                         Lou

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I’m building a wood and fabric plane and would have loved to talk to others about their planes but there were none to be found. I looked for manufacturers of wooden kits but only Fisher had the gonads to show their product. If the wood kits are as good as we are led to believe, why don?t they show us what they have to offer?

Cost, most likely.  We had a recent post that a small booth in the swap-meet area was about $1500, and a small display booth inside the hangars was over $2000.  I don’t know how much an outdoor display spot is, but suspect it’s over two grand, as well.  Add in the expense of transporting your wares and people, finding housing for your employees, etc. Kit-wise, the vast majority of the wood designs are small Mini-Max class airplanes.  Not much profit on each of them.  Wood kits are getting rarer; people want a lot of prefabbed parts, and that means a lot of expensive hand-work for a wood kit. There still are a number of wood plans-built designs out there, but how many sets of $65 Fly Baby plans do you have to sell to be able to afford a booth at Oshkosh? It’s just a sad truth that Oshkosh isn’t affordable for the purveyors of the small plans-built aircraft that got EAA started.   The Broadhead Pietenpol Fly-In usually happens a week earlier than Oshkosh, and it’s located in Wisconsin just like Oshkosh is.  Yet you’ll see dozens of Piets at Broadhead, compared to a couple at Airventure. Ron Wanttaja

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Question:

Kerry gives good face. Bill R. OO    

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The good news is that there are many great lamps out there.  I’ve used quite a few different models, currently a Black Diamond with both LED and Beam lamps.  I really recommend this, because the LED is very efficient, but you still have the beam if you need it.  Also, make sure you get one with the batteries in the back to counterbalance the lamp assembly.  Having the batteries in the front makes the lamp front-heavy and it tends to creep downwards toward your eyes as you run (unless you tighten up the straps to the point where they give you a headache).  For running, I also like the models with lightweight straps.

Did you ever find any (4 led’s or more) with batteries in the back that used AA batteries? All the ones I saw used AAA, which  don’t come in lithium (at least in the fall they didn’t, and Energizer didn’t sound like they were going to be coming out soon – I did ask).  In normal Alaskan winters (winter bypassed us this year), the alkaline batteries (even C and D cells)  with a normal light (not led) don’t provide useful light for more than a few minutes – esp. if exposed to cold as they would be on a head band (as opposed to separate that you can stick someplace warm). Rechargeable NiMH (my current bike light) and primary lithiums (running lights) seem to work well. And the shelf life is great for lithiums also. Lithiums are also cheaper than alkaline, when considering the longer useful life of them, even in normal temperatures (at least in applications where I’ve used them).  Mine have 3 AA batteries in front and the bounce is neglible, unless my form is poor. But I might have it riding a little high in front, then point the lamp down, but won’t remember till next fall, unless I go running about 3 am.. Dot — "Success is different things to different people" -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – On some of the ultra runners’ web sites there are extensive discussions of the various headlamp and other lighting options for night running. Here’s one place to look (look over on the right about halfway down at "Various" and then "Lighting"): http://www.fred.net/ultrunr/ chris Chris, That’s a really good place to start, esp. for non-LED lights, but there’s been so many significant improvements in LED lights since that page was put together (1999 are the dates I’m seeing, but maybe there’s something more recent without a date), that it would be useful for someone to check recent posts (last 12 months or shorter) in ng and forums (here or RW – or ultra list, but I think that’s passworded for non-subscribers so won’t help Brian. But some of same discussions occur on RW with more background for people with little night running experience that might help Brian.). Dot yep, that’s where I started, but couldn’t find what I was looking for ;)

The good news is that there are many great lamps out there.  I’ve used quite a few different models, currently a Black Diamond with both LED and Beam lamps.  I really recommend this, because the LED is very efficient, but you still have the beam if you need it.  Also, make sure you get one with the batteries in the back to counterbalance the lamp assembly.  Having the batteries in the front makes the lamp front-heavy and it tends to creep downwards toward your eyes as you run (unless you tighten up the straps to the point where they give you a headache).  For running, I also like the models with lightweight straps.

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Petzl are good and I’ve run for an hour in what would have otherwise been total darkness.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m looking for a head mount (via head band or hat) light for running in the dark.  Does anybody have any link of retailers that sell this product.

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I’m curious — how much do these lights bounce around when you’re running? It seems you would have to tighten them up quite a bit to keep them stable … Scott

Bounce of lightweight ones is minor if you run "softly" as Oz says. The bounce of mine is mostly from any inadvertent bouncing I do, and I use that as a form check. Some have batteries in back of headband so that only the light is upfront, while others have light and batteries up front and are probably more prone to bouncing (mine are upfront). Dot — "Success is different things to different people" -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

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try this link: http://www.mickiesplace.com/lights.htm

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Brian, I used an "Aurora"  on the Appalachian Trail. It’s the best I’ve ever used.  I know they have them at Galyan’s, because that’s where I bought mine.  It’s small and light, plus you get a key chain light which will brighten up an entire room. http://community.webtv.net/tmacrun/OhioRunningLinks

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I’m looking for a head mount

Me too! All the time…. Bill R. OO    

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Hi Brian, I used an "Aurora"  on the Appalachian Trail. It’s the best I’ve ever used.  I know they have them at Galyan’s, because that’s where I bought mine.  It’s small and light, plus you get a key chain light which will brighten up an entire room. http://community.webtv.net/tmacrun/OhioRunningLinks

Response:

On some of the ultra runners’ web sites there are extensive discussions of the various headlamp and other lighting options for night running. Here’s one place to look (look over on the right about halfway down at "Various" and then "Lighting"): http://www.fred.net/ultrunr/ chris – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Brian, I used an "Aurora"  on the Appalachian Trail. It’s the best I’ve ever used.  I know they have them at Galyan’s, because that’s where I bought mine.  It’s small and light, plus you get a key chain light which will brighten up an entire room. http://community.webtv.net/tmacrun/OhioRunningLinks

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I’m curious — how much do these lights bounce around when you’re running? It seems you would have to tighten them up quite a bit to keep them stable … Scott – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Brian, I used an "Aurora"  on the Appalachian Trail. It’s the best I’ve ever used.  I know they have them at Galyan’s, because that’s where I bought mine.  It’s small and light, plus you get a key chain light which will brighten up an entire room.

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It seems you would have to tighten them up quite a bit to keep them stable …

Yes, but they come with pointed screws like the christmas tree holders we use at christmas, and you just tighten these pointed screws until it moves no more. Headaches? Well sure, but that’s the price you pay. Bill R. OO    

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On some of the ultra runners’ web sites there are extensive discussions of the various headlamp and other lighting options for night running. Here’s one place to look (look over on the right about halfway down at "Various" and then "Lighting"): http://www.fred.net/ultrunr/ chris

Chris, That’s a really good place to start, esp. for non-LED lights, but there’s been so many significant improvements in LED lights since that page was put together (1999 are the dates I’m seeing, but maybe there’s something more recent without a date), that it would be useful for someone to check recent posts (last 12 months or shorter) in ng and forums (here or RW – or ultra list, but I think that’s passworded for non-subscribers so won’t help Brian. But some of same discussions occur on RW with more background for people with little night running experience that might help Brian.). Dot yep, that’s where I started, but couldn’t find what I was looking for ;) — "Success is different things to different people" -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

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www.rei.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m looking for a head mount (via head band or hat) light for running in the dark.  Does anybody have any link of retailers that sell this product.

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Try camping/outdoor retailers like REI, LL Bean or similar. Or just do a google search. I’m looking for a head mount (via head band or hat) light for running in the dark.  Does anybody have any link of retailers that sell this product.

– Keith Gemeinhart Technology Service Corp. Sebring, FL —

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I’m looking for a head mount (via head band or hat) light for running in the dark.  Does anybody have any link of retailers that sell this product.

Last fall I got mine (Photon Fusion and Lightwave Illuminator headlamps, Lightwave 2000 green flashlight) from these 2 places http://www.theledlight.com/LEDheadlamps.html http://alphanet.zoovy.com/ These links are also useful http://ledmuseum.home.att.net/ http://www.glow-bug.com/ http://www.botachtactical.com/micolights.html I was only looking for up to about 7 leds at the time for easy trail running. But there are some lights that go up to about 17 or more, although most of them are flashlights. I purchased based on products I wanted, pricing, shipping to Alaska, return policy. Other places were cheaper but were more expensive shipping here. I swapped the green light head from the Lightwave 2000 flashlight and put on the Lightwave Illuminator headlamp (headlamp only came in white, and I wanted a green headlamp for snow). I never got to try the green light in snowstorm or fog, but an Oregon ultra runner reports that the green Lightwave 2000 works much better than white in his fog (and I’d believe him before I believe me since he’s got far more experience at what works and doesn’t ;)  But if you need to follow colored trail markers, then having a white light handy is helpful. Dot — "Success is different things to different people" -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

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I’m looking for a head mount (via head band or hat) light for running in the dark.  Does anybody have any link of retailers that sell this product.

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