Question:
: I’ll argue this point a little. I have a couple of cheap plastic ones, : and they work fine. They tend to tear sometimes, but duct tape makes : a good repair. A good high quality poncho runs about $50, while the : Actually you can get a good high quality poncho from your local army surplus : store. Mine was $5 used. I have had it for 3 years now. They didn’t : have any used ones when I bought my daughter’s, so her’s cost me $15, last : year. Yeah, but you need to be careful. I bought a used poncho without looking at it closely, and when I needed it I discovered it leaked. I assume it was worn out. I don’t know what criteria the military uses to toss old poncho’s, but I’m pretty sure they don’t toss new ones.
Response:
I’ll argue this point a little. I have a couple of cheap plastic ones, and they work fine. They tend to tear sometimes, but duct tape makes a good repair. A good high quality poncho runs about $50, while the Actually you can get a good high quality poncho from your local army surplus store. Mine was $5 used. I have had it for 3 years now. They didn’t have any used ones when I bought my daughter’s, so her’s cost me $15, last year.
But how does a $5 poncho outperform a $250 gortex set of raingear????? Could it be because it fits so loosly that you have plenty of air circulation?????
Response:
: I’ll argue this point a little. I have a couple of cheap plastic ones, : and they work fine. They tend to tear sometimes, but duct tape makes : a good repair. A good high quality poncho runs about $50, while the : Actually you can get a good high quality poncho from your local army surplus : store. Mine was $5 used. I have had it for 3 years now. They didn’t : have any used ones when I bought my daughter’s, so her’s cost me $15, last : year. Yeah, but you need to be careful. I bought a used poncho without looking at it closely, and when I needed it I discovered it leaked. I assume it was worn out. I don’t know what criteria the military uses to toss old poncho’s, but I’m pretty sure they don’t toss new ones.
You’re correct. I bought a "casualty blanket" locally. These are better known as the "All Weather Space Blanket". I got it home and found it had been patched w/ OD tape. One has to beware. The military ponchos are nice. I carry two when I go packing because they can be snapped together into a variety of fun shelters 
. I just got an order for one poncho to use as a rain/wind break over the hammocks in the same order, so a few others out there are fans of military ponchos too . — DISCLAIMER: The views expressed in this posting are mine, and do not necessarily reflect the views of my employer.
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But we also weren’t doing any serious climbing – walking on flat ground in a poncho is fine, but you can’t see your feet all that well in one, and it would get tangled up if you were climbing something steep. Here, I’d use rain pants and jacket. Also, a good wind will render a poncho a useless, flapping nuisance. But it is true, if you do go with a poncho, get a really good one – the cheaper ones just don’t work.
Tie a string around your waist and over the poncho. This will Keep the poncho from flapping around. With a little string and a maybe a stick or two you should be able to use a big poncho for a make shift tent. (A frame type) -David Saunders
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(stuff deleted) name it). I finally settled on the winner. Sierra Designs MicroLite anorak and pant combo. These are marketed as ‘water and wind resistant’ but the folks at SD are modest. This stuff keeps you damn dry. (…..) he hikes alone. They’re made of ripstop nylon, just like the tent flys, so they’re super lightweight, and each piece goes into little stuffsacks no bigger than a couple guinea pigs. Best of all, they sell for about $30, each piece.
They are good for the price. Make a nice lightweight rain suit to carry in your daypack when rain is not expected. I don’t know why outfitters get behind Gore the way they do, there must be some serious profit in it. My point is, you can’t stay dry in fishtank conditions if your rain gear "breathes". Moisture will, eventually and inevitably, soak through. You have to repel the water to stay dry. Try it; hit yourself with a garden hose while wrapped in your tent fly. Then do the same wearing GoreTex. You’ll get the point. As for the sweat factor, it’s like I said, you go a lot slower in the rain anyway, and with cotton clothes under- neath, you’ll be comfortable in any downpour.
Well you won’t be permitted on any of my snow or winter climbs. Cotton under a rubber suit might be OK in the tropics, but is not safe most of the time in the NW. While you might feel warm while hiking in this setup, you could get real cold in a hurry if you stopped. Cotton would lose all its insulating value when it got sweat soaked under these conditions. This last weekend, had a chance to test the theory that waterproof non breatheable gear keeps you drier. A group of us hiked 3800 ft and 5 miles up the Columbia Gorge (Ruckles Ridge), in the rain. Most had goretex, but several had the Patagonia non-goretex stuff. They were much wetter at the end than those with goretex. I this case, sweat was the major contributor to wetness, has it almost always is when hiking, IMO. Sorry for the length of this article, but I had to get this off my chest. I’m tired of hearing people go on and on about the "wonders" of "breathable" rain gear. In Thomas Edison’s original laboratory are his original cobalt lightbulbs. They
^^^^^^ carbon!! burn them ten hours a day, every day since he died. The same bulbs. We could make these bulbs today for about $1.50 each, but why do you suppose they don’t? That’s right. No money in lightbulbs that outlast the company that makes them.
The original lamps are very inefficient (30% that of modern tungsten incandescent lamps, which are not very efficent either!) You can get the same life by running modern bulbs with lower voltage. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Save your money. Stick with the tried and true and avoid "new and improved" stuff companies try to sell you. Ken Barrett
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Why is it that Gore coats the fabric with the water repellent finish if it’s already waterproof?
Hmmm, perhaps so the fabric itself does not get waterlogged and contribute to an evaporative cooling effect which would cause condensation inside of the jacket. Wouldn’t it be cheaper to manufacture without the coating?
My guess is that the cost savings of removing the DWR (durable water repellent) would be negligable. You can respray your garment with Tectron for just a couple of dollars. I would expect it do be quite cheap to apply during the manufacturing process. I would guess this is because either the public is too stupid to realize that a waterproof fabric does not necessarily have to have the water bead up to be waterproof or that the fabric is not waterproof without the coating.
Well, I wouldn’t disagree with your comment about the public not believing in waterproof fabric without beading, but I think the above answer is a more reasonable explanation. From my experience, Gortex is not quite as nice in the rain as they would like you to think and at $100-$500 for a suit of teflon coated fabric I would expect more.
Everyone on the ‘net is constantly harping on the cost of Gore-tex garments, so I have a question. Why is the non-Gore-tex WP/B (waterproof/breathable) raingear also over $100? I am NOT referring to the simple PVC raingear that you can purchase at K-Mart, but ones with pit-zips, adjustable hoods, waists and wrists, sealed seams, and storm flaps. —
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – [stuff deleted] …I finally settled on the winner. Sierra Designs MicroLite anorak and pant combo. These are marketed as ‘water and wind resistant’ but the folks at SD are modest. This stuff keeps you damn dry. My Dad has REI’s elements, and my Mom has Helly Hansen rain gear. They paid $259 each for these outfits and they never stay as dry as I do when we hike together. Here’s a wager; hike with me in the Hoh Rain Forest (Olympic Peninsula, 142 inches of rain per year) for a week in April with your choice of GoreTex clothing. I’ll wear my SD Microlite (with gaiters). You’ll be heading for the car after two days – with my rain gear! In fact, my Dad borrows the jacket when he hikes alone. They’re made of ripstop nylon, just like the tent flys, so they’re super lightweight, and each piece goes into little stuffsacks no bigger than a couple guinea pigs. Best of all, they sell for about $30, each piece. I don’t know why outfitters get behind Gore the way they do, there must be some serious profit in it. My point is, you can’t stay dry in fishtank conditions if your rain gear "breathes". Moisture will, eventually and inevitably, soak through. You have to repel the water to stay dry. Try it; hit yourself with a garden hose while wrapped in your tent fly. Then do the same wearing GoreTex. You’ll get the point. As for the sweat factor, it’s like I said, you go a lot slower in the rain anyway, and with cotton clothes under- neath, you’ll be comfortable in any downpour. Sorry for the length of this article, but I had to get this off my chest. I’m tired of hearing people go on and on about the "wonders" of "breathable" rain gear. In Thomas Edison’s original laboratory are his original cobalt lightbulbs. They burn them ten hours a day, every day since he died. The same bulbs. We could make these bulbs today for about $1.50 each, but why do you suppose they don’t? That’s right. No money in lightbulbs that outlast the company that makes them. Save your money. Stick with the tried and true and avoid "new and improved" stuff companies try to sell you.
I agree with most everything you had to say, especially the comments about Gortex. Why is it that Gore coats the fabric with the water repellent finish if it’s already waterproof? Wouldn’t it be cheaper to manufacture without the coating? I would guess this is because either the public is too stupid to realize that a waterproof fabric does not necessarily have to have the water bead up to be waterproof or that the fabric is not waterproof without the coating. From my experience, Gortex is not quite as nice in the rain as they would like you to think and at $100-$500 for a suit of teflon coated fabric I would expect more. Craig
Response:
But how does a $5 poncho outperform a $250 gortex set of raingear????? Could it be because it fits so loosly that you have plenty of air circulation?????
I think the question should be how does a $5 poncho outperform a $250 gortex set of raingear…I stay plenty dry in a poncho and boots, and my pack stays dry also! I don’t believe in spending money, just to have the newest and latest, when the old works fine! Lynn
Response:
Yeah, but you need to be careful. I bought a used poncho without looking at it closely, and when I needed it I discovered it leaked. I assume it was worn out. I don’t know what criteria the military uses to toss old poncho’s, but I’m pretty sure they
Any time you buy anything used it should be checked carefully! Our army surplus does not just get it’s stuff from the army. Vets often take their stuff there to get rid of it. And it DOES sell NEW items, new being items that have never been used by anyone. Lynn
Response:
But how does a $5 poncho outperform a $250 gortex set of raingear????? Could it be because it fits so loosly that you have plenty of air circulation?????
Plus ponchos don’t require you to take off your pack. If you are from the Northwest this is a big plus (rain on, rain off, rain on …)
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : I was wondering if some people could offer some sort of help wrt staying dry : on a camping trip where the weather does not co-operate. : When taking free advise, remember you get what you pay for: Mine is free also! : After trying rainsuits for several years, I have decided that a GOOD nylon : rain poncho is the best solution. Be careful, do not get one of the cheap : plastic ones, they do not last. I’ll argue this point a little. I have a couple of cheap plastic ones, and they work fine. They tend to tear sometimes, but duct tape makes a good repair. A good high quality poncho runs about $50, while the cheap plastic ones can be had for about a buck-and-a-half. Since I don’t wear them often, it’s not worth the $50. And since they don’t last, I have two. I will agree that a poncho is the best bet. There’s enough ventilation so you don’t feel like you’re in a sauna, and they have several other uses as well.
I just wanted to throw in my .02 here: I live in the rainy PNW, and don’t like to get wet any more than the next guy. The best thing I’ve found so far for backpacking weather protection is an outer shell of a waterproof breathable fabric (Goretex, or REI Elements for example). I also carry a fleece pullover and pants, and wicking long underwear. The only other things I add (for summer) is shorts and a short-sleeve shirt. I don’t get wet, and if it gets cold, I don’t feel it. The beauty of this is that I can carry practically the same clothing no matter when or where I camp. I’ve used this setup in January on the Pacific Coast range, in February in the Cascades, in all sorts of weather. Never have I been cold or wet. Of course, the drawback is cost. It’ll set you back at least a couple of hundred bucks. Fortunately, I live near the Columbia Sportswear outlet. — Atlas Telecom | electrons, which you cannot see unless you have been Portland, OR | drinking." — This message printed with 100% recycled electrons —
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((((much debate about rainsuits and ponchos deleted)))) As I see it, there’s no end all statement to be made regarding whether(weather) to get a poncho(durable or cheapo) or a rainsuit. It all depends on how much weight you feel like carrying, how hot it is, how active you will be, and how much money you have to spend. Having used the US army poncho( quite nice) and cheapo ponchos as well as a goretex rainsuit. I will put in my two cents, hell , I’ll even throw in an extra penny Cheap ponchos pro- cheap lightweight compressible good ventilation con- easily destroyed tend to be small snags easily high quality ponchos pro- large hard to rip decent ventilation can be a makeshift shelter or vapor barrier liner con- bulky expensive (not as expensive as goretex tho) snags easily rainsuit pro- keeps you very, very dry moves with the body, snags less, esp. off trail feels like wearing another layer of clothing, not a bedspread con- expensive, close to $200 for Gore-Tex brand, similar materials without the name can be had for much less not well ventilated for hot days not as durable as good quality poncho Hope this helps. Mark Borgerding
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don’t like to get wet any more than the next guy. The best thing I’ve found so far for backpacking weather protection is an outer shell of a waterproof breathable fabric (Goretex, or REI Elements for example). I also carry a fleece pullover and pants, and wicking long underwear.
I take the same thing as Brant minus the fleece pants after May (I have a pair of Goretex pants too that I rarely use in Sierra). I also take a Dana Pack cover that will cover my head and back. This covers my Goretex jacket when the water really comes down. As I think most will agree, Goretex will reach a point of saturation in a deluge. My parka doesn’t leak, it becomes damp on the shoulders (zips in the pits help with the internal condensation). I prefer pullover Goretex parkas with minimal seams. Dave
Response:
In the days before I had any decent gear (which I DO remember fondly, actually), I hiked in jeans and wore an old army poncho. It was a crappy setup, sure, but I was convinced that hiking, especially Washington hiking, was just a wet endeavor regardless. The poncho kept my head and upper body dry, but the underbrush still soaked my pants, which then wicked onto my wool socks, which then carried the water – very efficiently – right down into my boots. (Mmmm. Excuse my reverie at the memory). Oh, the joy of dumping out my boots when I finally dropped my pack! And then the wringing of the socks. And then trying to get both boots and socks dry before I broke camp. And then.. oh, you know the routine. Or maybe some of you don’t! (Lucky bastards). After years of this misery, I finally wised up and bought some decent rain gear. It was heavy and hot rubber stuff, but I was dry! Actually, since I hike slower in the rain because of slippery footing on log bridges and slabs, I didn’t work up too much of a sweat. But, like all my gear, I had to upgrade eventually, and after many years of soggy field testing in the wet, wetter, and submerged forests of the Pacific Northwest, trying every material I could get my hands on (plastic, rubber, GoreTex garbage bags – you name it). I finally settled on the winner. Sierra Designs MicroLite anorak and pant combo. These are marketed as ‘water and wind resistant’ but the folks at SD are modest. This stuff keeps you damn dry. My Dad has REI’s elements, and my Mom has Helly Hansen rain gear. They paid $259 each for these outfits and they never stay as dry as I do when we hike together. Here’s a wager; hike with me in the Hoh Rain Forest (Olympic Peninsula, 142 inches of rain per year) for a week in April with your choice of GoreTex clothing. I’ll wear my SD Microlite (with gaiters). You’ll be heading for the car after two days – with my rain gear! In fact, my Dad borrows the jacket when he hikes alone. They’re made of ripstop nylon, just like the tent flys, so they’re super lightweight, and each piece goes into little stuffsacks no bigger than a couple guinea pigs. Best of all, they sell for about $30, each piece. I don’t know why outfitters get behind Gore the way they do, there must be some serious profit in it. My point is, you can’t stay dry in fishtank conditions if your rain gear "breathes". Moisture will, eventually and inevitably, soak through. You have to repel the water to stay dry. Try it; hit yourself with a garden hose while wrapped in your tent fly. Then do the same wearing GoreTex. You’ll get the point. As for the sweat factor, it’s like I said, you go a lot slower in the rain anyway, and with cotton clothes under- neath, you’ll be comfortable in any downpour. Sorry for the length of this article, but I had to get this off my chest. I’m tired of hearing people go on and on about the "wonders" of "breathable" rain gear. In Thomas Edison’s original laboratory are his original cobalt lightbulbs. They burn them ten hours a day, every day since he died. The same bulbs. We could make these bulbs today for about $1.50 each, but why do you suppose they don’t? That’s right. No money in lightbulbs that outlast the company that makes them. Save your money. Stick with the tried and true and avoid "new and improved" stuff companies try to sell you. Ken Barrett
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However, rubber boots would be miserable to hike anything steep in or to hike with a heavy load for very long, as they give little/no support.
I beg to differ! (once again And yes, definately do Seam-Seal your tent well.
As I’ve understood it, seam leakage is neglible compared to condensation, except in the seams in the tent floor (better if there are none). I suppose it may depend on the quality of the tent though. If the rainfly material stretches, the pin holes in the seam grow and leak. In a high quality tent this is less of a problem, especially if the thread absorbs water and swells and thus fills the holes. Markus Bjorksten
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Opinion on ponchos as rain weather clothing: Better get a hihg quality one, typically PVC coated polyamid. Military ones are good but heavy. Low quality rain weather gear often tears easily, especially as it gets fragile in cold wether. Such equipment has no place as bc equipment, imo. Pros: – Multiuse (shelter, ground cloth, river crossing, stretchers..) – Good ventilation – Small/medium packing can be worn under – Simple, thus durable – Good protection & comfort when staying still – Cheap Cons: – Heavy (Eg. Finnish Army, 1.1kg + 0.30kg(rain legs) – Awkward in difficult terrain (gets stepped on..) – Uncomfortable with large packing (arm protection and ventilation get worse..) – Insufficient protection of arms when active, esp. if skiing – High air resistance (cycling, high wind..) If moving through underwegetation, separate leg protection is needed. Eg. rain legs, which attach to belt. IMO, a poncho is not worth while, unless its multiuse capability is needed. Ordinary rain weather trousers + jacket usually perform better. No comment on Gore-Tex here, it is in another league. Markus Bjorksten
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The author below advocates use of ponchos instead of rain suits – in some cases this is probably true, i.e. when I was in South America, Amazon basin, where it was just too bloody hot to be encased in a coat and pants, we used ponchos. But we also weren’t doing any serious climbing – walking on flat ground in a poncho is fine, but you can’t see your feet all that well in one, and it would get tangled up if you were climbing something steep. Here, I’d use rain pants and jacket. Also, a good wind will render a poncho a useless, flapping nuisance. But it is true, if you do go with a poncho, get a really good one – the cheaper ones just don’t work. As for footwear, depends what you’re doing and where. Again, in South America, where we were often up to our mid-calves in wet mud, we either used rubber boots or jungle boots, which wet through but had drainage holes to allow the water to run out. However, rubber boots would be miserable to hike anything steep in or to hike with a heavy load for very long, as they give little/no support. And yes, definately do Seam-Seal your tent well. Look for one where the rain fly coms down nearly to the ground, too – those cheap dome tents with the little rain flys that look like the tent’s wearing a hat just do not work.
| I was wondering if some people could offer some sort of help wrt staying dry | on a camping trip where the weather does not co-operate. | | I’ll give my answers based on 17 years of frequent camping — mostly with | Boy Scout Troops — both in the Southwest (New Mexico, Colorado) and the | Upper Mid-West (Illinois, Wisconsin, Indiana). When taking free advise, | remember you get what you pay for: | | 1. Recommendations for a rainsuit – what types are the best? are stitched and | sealed seams necessary or will welded plastic seams do? | | After trying rainsuits for several years, I have decided that a GOOD nylon | rain poncho is the best solution. Be careful, do not get one of the cheap | plastic ones, they do not last. A good nylon poncho will work in almost | any outdoor situation except bicycling and motorcycling — and some people | may even use them for these activities. Additionally, your poncho will | double as a tarp, ground cloth and several other useful items on days | without rain. They are less expensive than rain suites also. | | | 2. Footwear – what type of footwear is the best? do people take rubber boots | along with them or just a change of footwear? | | I usually just bring a change of footwear. I don’t even own rubber boots. | | 3. Tent – last year our tent leaked somewhat during a moderate to heavy 24 | hour rainfall. Are there any suggestions to reduce/eliminate water from | entering the tent. | | A couple of suggestions: Seam Seal the tent to eliminate leaks around | the seam, and use a plastic ground cloth slightly smaller than the tent to | prevent seepage from under the floor. | | Thanks in advance for any input. | Scott Webb | | Your Welcome | Ronald B. Oakes |
Response:
: I was wondering if some people could offer some sort of help wrt staying dry : on a camping trip where the weather does not co-operate. : When taking free advise, remember you get what you pay for: Mine is free also! : After trying rainsuits for several years, I have decided that a GOOD nylon : rain poncho is the best solution. Be careful, do not get one of the cheap : plastic ones, they do not last. I’ll argue this point a little. I have a couple of cheap plastic ones, and they work fine. They tend to tear sometimes, but duct tape makes a good repair. A good high quality poncho runs about $50, while the cheap plastic ones can be had for about a buck-and-a-half. Since I don’t wear them often, it’s not worth the $50. And since they don’t last, I have two. I will agree that a poncho is the best bet. There’s enough ventilation so you don’t feel like you’re in a sauna, and they have several other uses as well. Keith
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I’ll argue this point a little. I have a couple of cheap plastic ones, and they work fine. They tend to tear sometimes, but duct tape makes a good repair. A good high quality poncho runs about $50, while the
Actually you can get a good high quality poncho from your local army surplus store. Mine was $5 used. I have had it for 3 years now. They didn’t have any used ones when I bought my daughter’s, so her’s cost me $15, last year. Lynn
Response:
I was wondering if some people could offer some sort of help wrt staying dry on a camping trip where the weather does not co-operate.
I’ll give my answers based on 17 years of frequent camping — mostly with Boy Scout Troops — both in the Southwest (New Mexico, Colorado) and the Upper Mid-West (Illinois, Wisconsin, Indiana). When taking free advise, remember you get what you pay for: 1. Recommendations for a rainsuit – what types are the best? are stitched and sealed seams necessary or will welded plastic seams do?
After trying rainsuits for several years, I have decided that a GOOD nylon rain poncho is the best solution. Be careful, do not get one of the cheap plastic ones, they do not last. A good nylon poncho will work in almost any outdoor situation except bicycling and motorcycling — and some people may even use them for these activities. Additionally, your poncho will double as a tarp, ground cloth and several other useful items on days without rain. They are less expensive than rain suites also. 2. Footwear – what type of footwear is the best? do people take rubber boots along with them or just a change of footwear?
I usually just bring a change of footwear. I don’t even own rubber boots. 3. Tent – last year our tent leaked somewhat during a moderate to heavy 24 hour rainfall. Are there any suggestions to reduce/eliminate water from entering the tent.
A couple of suggestions: Seam Seal the tent to eliminate leaks around the seam, and use a plastic ground cloth slightly smaller than the tent to prevent seepage from under the floor. Thanks in advance for any input. Scott Webb
Your Welcome Ronald B. Oakes
Response:
I was wondering if some people could offer some sort of help wrt staying dry on a camping trip where the weather does not co-operate. 1. Recommendations for a rainsuit – what types are the best? are stitched and sealed seams necessary or will welded plactic seams do? 2. Footwear – what type of footwear is the best? do people take rubber boots along with them or just a change of footwear? 3. Tent – last year our tent leaked somewhat during a moderate to heavy 24 hour rainfall. Are there any suggestions to reduce/eliminate water from entering the tent. Thanks in advance for any input. Scott Webb
Response:
1. rainsuit 2. Footwear 3. Tent
Decent umbrella. I took one recently on a wet sloppy beginners snow camp trip. I gave the other guys the option (I had a second). I warned them. Now, I have to put up with these guys whining to my other friends how they got wet. While not perfect due to winds, it’s very handy Resident Cynic, Rock of Ages Home for Retired Hackers {uunet,mailrus,other gateways}!ames!eugene Favorite SNL Character: Candi Slice A Ref: Uncommon Sense, Alan Cromer, Oxford Univ. Press, 1993.
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